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Where did you get that information? Their website says it has oversampling.
https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/mixboxipad/
If Mixbox does have oversampling then I can't hear it
Here are some tests with the latest version, you can clearly hear the aliasing:
TURN YOUR VOLUME DOWN BEFORE PLAYING, you don't want to play these videos loud
In this video you can clearly hear audible aliasing once MixBox is enabled (with the O type filter module), it's that chirrupy echo after the sine sweep:
In contrast here is Pro Q3 with an equally aggressive filter, no aliasing:
Here is MixBox Saturator X, once again there is audible aliasing:
And finally this is Saturn 2, which also has audible aliasing until the oversampling is enabled (at the 20 second mark):
One question that pops up in when I see these tests is...
...how often in practice does one use 0dbFS full scale frequency sine-sweeps other than for pure test purposes?
Yes, but if processing attempts to generate harmonics above the Nyquist frequency, they will be audible as artifacts at lower frequencies, unintended non-musical tones. The test process just highlights them because there is no other sound to mask them.
The test just makes the aliasing really obvious, but you can hear it with a simple sine wave as well, it's just not as easy to listen out for.
With musical content the aliasing adds an unpleasant character to the sound, the test just shows that the aliasing is there.
The output showing aliasing doesn't mean the effect isn't using upsampling and seeing no aliasing doesn't mean they do use upsampling.
Lots of filters are linear and introduce no higher order harmonics. These won't need upsampling to avoid aliasing. (There may be other reasons to upsample though, like increased computational stability.)
Even if something does have pretty high order upsampling but is highly nonlinear or has several nonlinear stages hooked together then it could still exhibit aliasing if there isn't filtering between the stages to remove the higher harmonics before they generate a new set of even higher harmonics. Something like this can really impact filters that have nonlinear responses in the feedback of the filter.
That’s some serious aliasing, there aren’t really clear also what plug-in does what in terms of oversampling.
The Tracka version has a switch to 4x oversampling, so maybe it’s lower in MixBox. What sample rate did you use?
All my tests were done at 44.1
What's the Tracka version BTW?
i would like to hear from @ikmultimedia about this aliasing issue.
That's the stupid autocorrect on my phone
. I meant the TRacks (Desktop) version of Saturator X. That has a button for 4x oversampling, don't know if that solves the aliasing issue, but I would assume so.
T-Racks has oversampling options on some devices such as Saturator X, MixBox doesn't have oversampling. But the vast majority of aliasing issues are at such a low level that they don't have any noticeable audible impact. There are of course edge cases where aliasing is problematic.
80's FM synths suffered with a lot of aliasing issues but in many cases the aliasing is an important aspect of the resulting timbre. The same goes for modern software synthesizers. e.g. Many of the patches in U-He's ACE and Diva subjectively sound better at low sampling levels. The thing of greater importance is that the oscillators are anti-aliased (a different engineering technique altogether).
In summary, aliasing is a real issue but it's an issue that in the majority of cases has little impact on the music we make.
A golden rule of using digital EQ is that you should attempt in the majority of cases to only use it to cut higher frequencies. Some EQ's specialise in boosting higher 'air' frequencies but these are engineered specifically for that task.
A typical full frequency EQ curve should be close to this. All of the frequencies above the Nyquist (approx 10K) are heavily attenuated.
MixBox doesn't have oversampling.
I trust the aliasing results from the test, but again, their website clearly states something else. So I would like some more information on this.
@ikmultimedia Can you enlighten us what modules of Mixbox do have oversampling and to what degree?
I go with my ears on real world projects , so far no complaints with any aspect of mixbox at least the way I’ve been using it.
^ And that's the advice that matters.
"In which I reveal my favourite method to test for aliasing and check that oversampling is working correctly, and also try to provide some perspective on the whole aliasing / oversampling issue."
Dan Worrall in action, worth a listen...
@Samu
That's a far more balanced set of views from Dan Worrall on the subject of aliasing than the oversampling video he created for Fabfilter. It pretty much confirms much of what we've been discussing in this thread. I'm soo glad he chose to use Soundtoys Decapitator as an example of a plugin without oversampling which is also universally acclaimed for how great it sounds.
I feel the same way about Saturator-X in MixBox, especially when used in moderation to sweeten a signal (as opposed to smashing it). I find that Iron & Steel sound great on most sources but the Class A preamps and Push-Pull algorithms are also very flexible. There are better tape emulations on iOS than those in Saturator-X and the Master+ algorithms are a little too heavy-handed for my tastes but on balance, Saturator-X is a key element in achieving a pleasing non-linear response from MixBox. It's also one of the modules that make MixBox hard to replace with an alternative multi-fx toolset on iOS.
@jonmoore which tape emulations do you prefer?
The trouble with aliasing is that it adds non-musical frequencies to the signal. Saturation and distortion will add harmonics that are musically related to the existing frequencies in the signal, but with aliasing you get additional frequencies which are no longer harmonically related to the original.
In some situations it's not a big deal, and the aliasing may not be audible. In others the aliasing will add a grainy and unmusical harshness to the sound.
IMO the filters in Mixbox sound like shit. YMMV
On the other hand I'm happy to use the compression, EQ, and modulation modules, and I use Mixbox in most of my projects currently. That doesn't stop me from wishing that IK would oversampling as an option.
@MadGav
Toneboosters 'Reelbus 4' is my main choice but I also sometimes use Caelum Audio 'Tape Pro', and CHOWTapeModel (free).
Richard, none of us has a lack of understanding of what aliasing is. It's just that for the majority of musical input, the aliased signal that's folded back is so low as to be negligible. A swept sine isn't a musically relevant test.
The nature of musical frequencies means that there's far less energy in the frequencies above Nyquist, so the folded back signal has even less energy and usually can't be heard with most normal musical content.
BTW, I've at no point defended the filters in MixBox as I use alternatives but even here as long as you're not sweeping high frequencies with high levels of resonance (so a lot of musical content is above 10k) most usual use-cases should be relatively artefact free. You most definitely shouldn't be using those MixBox filters to emulate a 303 type timbre.
Personally speaking, I tend only to use Pro Q for low-pass and high-pass filtering when mixing, and generally only using gentle 6 or 12dB per octave filters. Creative filtering is another use-case entirely, but why use MixBox when we have Model 15!
Sure. The point I'm making is that to me the filters sound harsh and unmusical.
Jesus frick I hate how broccoli tastes. It’s disgusting. I should blast this truth on forums whenever I get a chance
Except I’ve shown quite clearly that in this case the broccoli is off. The chef could fix this though, and may well do in a future broccoli update. In the meantime I’m sticking to the carrots.
And that's an opinion you're quite obviously entitled to.
BTW saturation is a root cause of aliasing in the digital realm (hence why Fabilter Saturn has oversampling). It matters not whether we're talking odd or even (musically pleasing) harmonics, any added frequencies over Nyquist (half the sampling rate for those not familiar with the term Nyquist), will fold back at the sampling rate. As to whether it's something that makes something sound harsh only matters if it's significantly audible, which in many usual musical scenarios, it's not (as Dan Worrall explains in his recent video).
A filter design doesn't sound any less musical because it doesn't have oversampling, but it can sound harsh on highly resonant signals because of aliasing.
Ah nice! in order to get the recipe I want at the restaurant I will terrorize their customers. That’ll learn em a lesson.
Really?
Let's not drag broccoli into this discussion now. No need to be cruel.
Ooopz. Wrong thread.
I didn’t realise MixBox was some kind of organic vegetable delivery subscription service.
I’d be pissed off if I opened the box only to find a cauliflower in it. Cauliflower is the devil’s own vegetable. Not even cheese can save it.
Cauliflower is made for roasting with tikka marinade.