AUM Link: Handling, usage and perspectives

Sebastian

@j_liljedahl said:

@AndyPlankton said:

@Sebastian said:
Which brings me to the idea that competition is always good. It's not. Not in an environment where everyone relies on everyone else playing nice together.

Spot on ! The only reason MIDI itself has been so successful is that ALL the major players in the synth world were involved in it's creation
One question, in order for Link to become a true standard does it not need to be provided on hardware synths and sequencers too ? Until that happens universally will we not always need a link to midi/midi to link bridge ?

If you look at the history of the video format wars it is easy to see how competition can adversely affect the development of technologies.

I think Ableton Link is absolutely amazing great and I really hope every developer will implement it. I also think there's a role for IAA/AU host sync. These are two quite different scenarios. Ableton Link is great for sync between devices and live jamming. Host sync is needed when you want to have control over the transport (play/pause) and the timeline (rewind, locate to another time). Host sync is also the only alternative when it comes to Audio Unit extensions, as far as I know.

So, my point is that I don't see Link and host sync to be in competition, not at all! Rather the other way around: if a developer implements one of them, he'll have a much easier time to implement the other as well. I've written about it here: http://lijon.github.io/ios_audio_sync.html and even the Ableton developers has read it and liked it.

Now you just need to get the rest of the roughly 1300 iOS audio devs to read it as well, agree with you, dedicate the time to implement it and update their apps and educate their users about it.

Of course IAA and Link are competing because you cannot use both at the same time. And there's transport control through the Audiobus global play button, which we're improving further in future updates.

lukesleepwalker

@sonosaurus said:
Also, Link as it stands is only really usable for live performance, as it does not have absolute timeline repositioning or transport control. Until they add it, it honestly isn't interchangeable with the other sync standards. Yet.

Do you know if there are plans to address the shortcomings? Consistent ransport control is absolutely necessary to make this all work.

Another dream: developers agree on a standard for master session organization. In a live situation, having to open different apps to open sessions is an energy and time suck. It would be ideal if I change a session/project/song in one app and all the other apps in the ecosystem automatically update.

AndyPlankton

@Sebastian said:

There is a bridge app for that, made by Alexander Randon. It syncs hardware synths to Link, not the other way around. Going the other way (MIDI to Link) would introduce the shortcomings (drifting for example) of a 30 year old standard to a sample accurate sync technology like Link.

I fully agree with you, but what about having hardware being able to participate in Link fully, Hardware sequencers and synths need to be able to control the tempo too, otherwise they are slaves as far as Link is concerned, and there are no masters and slaves in Link.
Are hardware manufacturers, Korg for instance who have adopted Link in their iOS apps, also going to be providing Link on their future hardware ?

lukesleepwalker

@RustiK said:
Here is what I recommend to EVERYONE with AUM.

Before you post something or make a thread for every nuance or misunderstood setting, play with it.

Digital Music Masturbation.

You can't break it and you will only learn on what works.

This is a complicated app with a complicated LINK scenario on top of the fact properly and most efficiently implementing with your Audiobus flow. There are in ways new things that will be revealed even to the developer as the public at large dives in.

Patience. .............................................

Yeah, good point. But some of us have less time than others.

Sebastian

I don't have an answer to that but it would be cool. I'd like to see link becoming Bluetooth based, which should make it easier to set up.

Sebastian

@lukesleepwalker said:

@sonosaurus said:
Also, Link as it stands is only really usable for live performance, as it does not have absolute timeline repositioning or transport control. Until they add it, it honestly isn't interchangeable with the other sync standards. Yet.

Do you know if there are plans to address the shortcomings? Consistent ransport control is absolutely necessary to make this all work.

Another dream: developers agree on a standard for master session organization. In a live situation, having to open different apps to open sessions is an energy and time suck. It would be ideal if I change a session/project/song in one app and all the other apps in the ecosystem automatically update.

Apple made that really hard by embracing the Host/Plugin model with IAA and AUX.

We're still going to try to improve the current situation with Audiobus 3.

j_liljedahl

@Sebastian said:

@j_liljedahl said:

@AndyPlankton said:

@Sebastian said:
Which brings me to the idea that competition is always good. It's not. Not in an environment where everyone relies on everyone else playing nice together.

Spot on ! The only reason MIDI itself has been so successful is that ALL the major players in the synth world were involved in it's creation
One question, in order for Link to become a true standard does it not need to be provided on hardware synths and sequencers too ? Until that happens universally will we not always need a link to midi/midi to link bridge ?

If you look at the history of the video format wars it is easy to see how competition can adversely affect the development of technologies.

I think Ableton Link is absolutely amazing great and I really hope every developer will implement it. I also think there's a role for IAA/AU host sync. These are two quite different scenarios. Ableton Link is great for sync between devices and live jamming. Host sync is needed when you want to have control over the transport (play/pause) and the timeline (rewind, locate to another time). Host sync is also the only alternative when it comes to Audio Unit extensions, as far as I know.

So, my point is that I don't see Link and host sync to be in competition, not at all! Rather the other way around: if a developer implements one of them, he'll have a much easier time to implement the other as well. I've written about it here: http://lijon.github.io/ios_audio_sync.html and even the Ableton developers has read it and liked it.

Now you just need to get the rest of the roughly 1300 iOS audio devs to read it as well, agree with you, dedicate the time to implement it and update their apps and educate their users about it.

Hmm, you make it sound like IAA/AU host sync was my own invention? Surely IAA sync is interesting for any IAA node app developer who wants to sync their app to any host that provides it (Cubasis, Auria, AUM, etc..). And for AudioUnit extension developers it's essential.

The point with my post at lijon.github.io is simply to help developers with their sync implementation, for both Link and host sync, to make all apps play nicely together.

Of course IAA and Link are competing because you cannot use both at the same time. And there's transport control through the Audiobus global play button, which we're improving further in future updates.

I meant competing as in competing standards. Of course you can't sync to two different clock sources at once!

Even if you also implement a global rewind button in Audiobus, there's still situations where you want a timeline with start and end, with the ability to locate to a specific time, as has been in MIDI sequencers and audio editors and DAWs for many many years. It's not going away, and it's not competing with technologies for "timeless" live jamming either.

Also, I understand you want to keep everyone inside Audiobus, but the reality is that there's other situations than that. And this is not only about AUM, it has been like that since the first IAA-enabled DAW came to iOS! So let's play nicely together, let us synchronize in the ways needed for the users and musicians to reach their goal.

[Deleted User]

This is great to have Devs discussing so much, a bit like one of those panel sessions hardware manufacturers have at shows

AndyPlankton

Is Bluetooth hardware cheaper to produce than Wi-Fi hardware ? I think a wired connection could also be a good thing, I can imagine there being an awful lot of interference floating about on a fully lit stage at Glastonbury , as it is Wi Fi based at the moment, could it use a standard IP network also ? A lot of state of the art sound systems use IP these days so the network is probably there on stage already ?

P.S. I think I progressed a little from thinking about how I sync Launchpad to AUM

Sebastian

@j_liljedahl said:

@Sebastian said:
Now you just need to get the rest of the roughly 1300 iOS audio devs to read it as well, agree with you, dedicate the time to implement it and update their apps and educate their users about it.

Hmm, you make it sound like IAA/AU host sync was my own invention? Surely IAA sync is interesting for any IAA node app developer who wants to sync their app to any host that provides it (Cubasis, Auria, AUM, etc..). And for AudioUnit extension developers it's essential.

That's not what I meant at all. I'm trying to make the point that it doesn't matter if a technical solution exists for it to be implemented or for it to become a standard. It requires evangelism, which is a lot of work.

Apple hardly promotes IAA at all, and they certainly don't promote or evangelize IAA sync enough for it to be implemented in all IAA enabled apps or even a large percentage of them. And you're not going to do that either, because it's a full time job.

In the last roughly five years I've done nothing but talking to developers to get them to do the right stuff. It started with Virtual MIDI, then there was Audiobus, and now it's Link - although I'm not doing that a lot, but Ableton has a whole team behind it.

I know how to play nice together.

Sebastian

@AndyPlankton said:
Is Bluetooth hardware cheaper to produce than Wi-Fi hardware ? I think a wired connection could also be a good thing, I can imagine there being an awful lot of interference floating about on a fully lit stage at Glastonbury , as it is Wi Fi based at the moment, could it use a standard IP network also ? A lot of state of the art sound systems use IP these days so the network is probably there on stage already ?

P.S. I think I progressed a little from thinking about how I sync Launchpad to AUM

Standard network cables could theoretically work. It's just that iPads don't have an easy way to be connected that way.

Sebastian

Huh, look at that: http://redpark.com/lightning-ethernet-cable/

Samu

It's going to be interesting to see how iOS10 will change things. My gut says it's more AU/IAA.

For me personally I've not been using AudioBus that much (no real need to be honest) since my workflow is mostly creating loops, exporting them and importing them to say Cubasis and those times I need to 'live record' the apps IAA works good enough.

AUM is just what I wished that AudioBus would have been when it comes to routing and mixing.

AndyPlankton

@Sebastian said:
Huh, look at that: http://redpark.com/lightning-ethernet-cable/

Look at that indeed, implement the SDK in Link and then we're all set for when Emily gives us the call

Korakios

@j_liljedahl said:

@lukesleepwalker said:
@j_liljedahl: But can AUM start/stop the whole Linked train, a la the AB master stop/start button? (The main deficiency of that AB button being no MIDI control.)

No, unfortunately Ableton Link has no start/stop/rewind, I wish it did.
However, AUM does send host transport state to all hosted IAA nodes and AU extensions, so if they just listen to that they will be started from AUM (and can then sync to Link or the host clock).

I have enabled link to AUM, Tritraq ,and ElasticDrums. But only Triqtraq responds to start/stop. Is it a problem in ElasticDrums or AUM ? I ask this because Elastic seems to understand stop/play in AB.

I like Link and prefer it million times over IAA sync ,because it actually syncs.
When overloading my ipad , an IAA hosted app looses sync and will stay forever offbeat. With Link I do loose sync ,but soon enough (with some crazy/noticabled but effective bpm jump) everything is synced (usually less than 2 bars)

mschenkel.it

As easy as it goes link just sends and receive tempo sync but no start stop. You'll get used to it and it is way better: you can do stutters with play/pause, you can stop one device and let the rest move on and the start it again in the middle of nowhere perfectly in sync.

lukesleepwalker

@mschenkel.it said:
As easy as it goes link just sends and receive tempo sync but no start stop. You'll get used to it and it is way better: you can do stutters with play/pause, you can stop one device and let the rest move on and the start it again in the middle of nowhere perfectly in sync.

Sure, if your musical style calls for this sort of thing. Some of us still need good old fashioned start and stop.

mschenkel.it

@lukesleepwalker said:

@mschenkel.it said:
As easy as it goes link just sends and receive tempo sync but no start stop. You'll get used to it and it is way better: you can do stutters with play/pause, you can stop one device and let the rest move on and the start it again in the middle of nowhere perfectly in sync.

Sure, if your musical style calls for this sort of thing. Some of us still need good old fashioned start and stop.

So get midi link sync; give it a 8 bar sync quantum; start midi clock and then you get 8 bars count-in to push play button on every device using link and the midi devices will wait as well

lukesleepwalker

@mschenkel.it said:

@lukesleepwalker said:

@mschenkel.it said:
As easy as it goes link just sends and receive tempo sync but no start stop. You'll get used to it and it is way better: you can do stutters with play/pause, you can stop one device and let the rest move on and the start it again in the middle of nowhere perfectly in sync.

Sure, if your musical style calls for this sort of thing. Some of us still need good old fashioned start and stop.

So get midi link sync; give it a 8 bar sync quantum; start midi clock and then you get 8 bars count-in to push play button on every device using link and the midi devices will wait as well

I'm referring to stopping.

mschenkel.it

Touché

Carnbot

AUM certainly makes using IAA a lot more pleasant experience than most other host apps. Which makes me wonder whether Apple will ever do anything more with IAA or are they finished with developing it and simply keep Improving AU instead.

As well as the restrictions of AU UI and ram being expanded It would be great to see IAA state saving at least.

j_liljedahl

@lukesleepwalker said:

@mschenkel.it said:
As easy as it goes link just sends and receive tempo sync but no start stop. You'll get used to it and it is way better: you can do stutters with play/pause, you can stop one device and let the rest move on and the start it again in the middle of nowhere perfectly in sync.

Sure, if your musical style calls for this sort of thing. Some of us still need good old fashioned start and stop.

I would love to see start/stop/rewind being included in Link too.

lukesleepwalker

@mschenkel.it said:
Touché

You got me opening to new possibilities, though... Instead of stopping, I'm now tinkering with Mute to achieve the transitions between things and, well, there are some advantages for sure. Get the file player going with some backing tracks/loops while managing logistics in other apps... Thanks for the nudge to think different.

Halftone

i don't have any real external gear - I've always just used my ipad itself and the apps contained on it. I have an external midi keyboard but I don't use it often. And sometimes I use my iRigHD to plug my guitar into ipad and record. But tonight I was thinking how I could use AUM, and it occured to me that I could route my iphone6 headphone output into the iRig, and then into my ipad and route things with AUM. Revelation for me, maybe a no-brainer for those used to hooking up external gear.

So I had AUM running on ipad with an input setup from iphone. On the ipad I started StepPolyArp. On the phone I had 1 AUM channel with Loopy running a drum loop and bass loop. On another channel I had Synthmaster - which was receiving midi over Bluetooth running from StepPolyArp. All synced nicely via Link too (except SPA, which received clock from Loopy) Added some saturation and filter to that channel. That's as far as I got - but I gotta say how great this is - My old ipad 4 was sitting at 0-2% CPU with this setup ... so this will breathe new life into my setup - taking some load off the ipad and being able to run a few synths or whatever on the iphone.

JohnnyGoodyear

@Halftone said:
i don't have any real external gear - I've always just used my ipad itself and the apps contained on it. I have an external midi keyboard but I don't use it often. And sometimes I use my iRigHD to plug my guitar into ipad and record. But tonight I was thinking how I could use AUM, and it occured to me that I could route my iphone6 headphone output into the iRig, and then into my ipad and route things with AUM. Revelation for me, maybe a no-brainer for those used to hooking up external gear.

So I had AUM running on ipad with an input setup from iphone. On the ipad I started StepPolyArp. On the phone I had 1 AUM channel with Loopy running a drum loop and bass loop. On another channel I had Synthmaster - which was receiving midi over Bluetooth running from StepPolyArp. All synced nicely via Link too (except SPA, which received clock from Loopy) Added some saturation and filter to that channel. That's as far as I got - but I gotta say how great this is - My old ipad 4 was sitting at 0-2% CPU with this setup ... so this will breathe new life into my setup - taking some load off the ipad and being able to run a few synths or whatever on the iphone.

Careful, this way boffinery lies (just jealous is all).

u0421793

Maybe there needs to be an app that is purely a go/stop button for everything. It tells everything else to rewind to zero and to start. It could be called Sago.

lukesleepwalker

@u0421793 said:
Maybe there needs to be an app that is purely a go/stop button for everything. It tells everything else to rewind to zero and to start. It could be called Sago.

Audiobus already has the master button. Just needs MIDI.

AndyPlankton

@lukesleepwalker said:

@u0421793 said:
Maybe there needs to be an app that is purely a go/stop button for everything. It tells everything else to rewind to zero and to start. It could be called Sago.

Audiobus already has the master button. Just needs MIDI.

I've mapped the play button on my nanokontrol to both modstep start and aum start, works a treat

j_liljedahl

@lukesleepwalker said:

@u0421793 said:
Maybe there needs to be an app that is purely a go/stop button for everything. It tells everything else to rewind to zero and to start. It could be called Sago.

Audiobus already has the master button. Just needs MIDI.

I really want to avoid MIDI clock, I don't want to encourage any other developer to use it by supporting it in AUM.

However, something that might be useful is to add an option to send a simple MIDI message (note/cc) or MMC from the AUM transports! I'm not sure, because the receiver still needs a way to keep the sync (for example Link).

Korakios

@j_liljedahl said:

@lukesleepwalker said:

@u0421793 said:
Maybe there needs to be an app that is purely a go/stop button for everything. It tells everything else to rewind to zero and to start. It could be called Sago.

Audiobus already has the master button. Just needs MIDI.

I really want to avoid MIDI clock, I don't want to encourage any other developer to use it by supporting it in AUM.

However, something that might be useful is to add an option to send a simple MIDI message (note/cc) or MMC from the AUM transports! I'm not sure, because the receiver still needs a way to keep the sync (for example Link).

There is no need for midi clock. Only a way to send start/stop.