Stereo for live performances?

lukesleepwalker

Anyone running stereo in live gigs? Everything I've read tells me that I should convert to mono for live gigs, and I can definitely see the reasoning. But, running stereo in rehearsal sounds SO GOOD. So, I'm wondering if anyone runs stereo live and how you do it without falling into pitfalls with regards to house systems, etc?

supadom

See no reason why you should convert to stereo? Where did you hear that?

I could see a reason for it when there's just one speaker as panned sounds would result quieter but with a full PA I'd say stereo is an absolute must, especially with effects like turnado but also some synth pads etc.

I also tend to pan loopy tracks even before recording so once I've recorded a 3 part harmony on separate panned tracks I merge them and get a lush sounding backing vocals.

KEEP IT STEREO!

lukesleepwalker

I agree that effects like Turnado require stereo to retain their magic!

The online resources were mostly from a sound person's perspective, with the main argument being that audience near one speaker could miss something go on in the other...

Here's one as an example.

Tarekith

The days of clubs and such being mono are largely overwith, that whole mono thing rarely is true anymore. I've always used stereo for playing live, never once had to play mono, even in crappy little bars.

Nothing wrong with checking your set to see how it sounds in mono just in case, but I don't usually let it change how the stereo version sounds.

rad3d

I run stereo live (both guitar and keys). I leave it up to the sound engineer (sometimes ourselves) to make the decision on how to mix based on the room. I agree that in many cases with smaller rooms, there are so few optimal listening areas for stereo that it sometimes makes sense to make sure nothing gets lost for larger groups of an audience on one side or the other of the PA. If the room isn't optimal, then pan your stereo channels in as needed for coverage.

But, I also play a lot of rooms that 'are' optimal - so I'd see no reasons to be running in mono in those situations.

supadom

Most of the show I've played, small venues up to 500 max people would almost always be a couple of meters away from the speakers even without the barriers thanks to the sound guys regularly keeping volumes too loud for anyone to stay close. Also stereo seems to be effective in a wide range of positions.

I first discovered that stereo is not a double mono when listening to 'it's a kind of magic' when I was about 10 and I wasn't even standing bang in the middle of the speakers.

lukesleepwalker

thanks, @supadom, @Tarekith , and @rad3d . So, how do you run the stereo out of your interface into the snake or whatever? DI boxes?

supadom

I just give the sound guy 2 balanced (?) mono jacks coming out from the back of my Akai EIE which he then runs into the D.I.s.

rad3d

I run everything out of my ICA4. 2 stereo pairs - guitar and keys - direct to snake from the ICA4's balanced outs.

Processaurus

I do sound for local shows, and would say keep it stereo, it will sound great, but be ready for mono at some point. I wouldn't hard pan essential elements, or use stereo effects that sound bad summed to mono.

One reason other than the ones already offered, is that while most sound systems are stereo for the mains, almost all clubs won't immediately offer stereo monitors on stage. They might if you ask diplomatically at sound check, and they are enthusiastic about stereophonic sound, but some may not have the ability.

One tactic i recommend to electronic musicians to whom stereo is important, is to carry a pair of 1/4" TRS to XLR male cables. Prosumer audio interfaces have balanced outputs, so you don't need a DI (or two DI's, for stereo, which can be an issue for small clubs, or shows with other acts taking the DI's) to send the proper balanced signal back through the snake to the mixing board. Just ask for "two mic lines" for your stereo output, and plug them in to your interface with the adapters.

I'll do stereo for an act or two, but not for a busy show with lots of instruments parading on and off the stage. It's the first sacrifice to make when you run out of channels, or DI's, or time. The adapter cables give you a good chance the sound person will hook you up to your own stereo channel on the board for the evening.

Shaken&Stirred

This thread is timely. My first iOS rig gig is in a couple weeks, and I've been wondering if most sound men are used to this kind of thing. I'm also running a ICA4, with two pairs of balanced outs, planning to run stereo. I'll have vocals isolated to one pair and guitar, keys and drum beats in the other, which will limit the soundman's mixing capabilities.

rad3d

@Processaurus said:
One reason other than the ones already offered, is that while most sound systems are stereo for the mains, almost all clubs won't immediately offer stereo monitors on stage.

Agree - never expect stereo monitoring from a house/rented system. I have a pair of small 12" guitar cabs reworked with full-range speakers that I use for on-stage monitoring in stereo for my guitar/keys. Even with that, sometimes hard to notice any stereo dimension on most stages.

@Shaken&;Stirred said:
This thread is timely. My first iOS rig gig is in a couple weeks, and I've been wondering if most sound men are used to this kind of thing. I'm also running a ICA4, with two pairs of balanced outs, planning to run stereo. I'll have vocals isolated to one pair and guitar, keys and drum beats in the other, which will limit the soundman's mixing capabilities.

I'd assume that he would prefer to have the guitar separated from the keys/drums for eq purposes. In these types of situations, you might want to ask yourself whether there is enough value in having stereo signals for both your vocals and guitar not to warrant running each of them mono, so you can provide separate outs for each of those from your ICA4. Another option with the ICA4 is to also separate a 3rd set of stereo outs from your headphone jack - though it wouldn't be balanced out and you'd have to make sure you had a way to provide a proper signal and gain level.

Also, sound engineers aren't generally used to taking in an effected, stereo vocal signal. There's a potential for additional feedback and/or washed out vocals in the mains if your effects settings don't fit with the room acoustics. Also make sure to let the engineer know that your mic levels are preamped. If you are plugging your ICA4 signal into a snake where there is usually a standard vocal mic (common during quick band changes at a show), your signals may be substantially hotter.

In the end, I'd err on the side of providing a seasoned sound engineer control over eq and overall mix before I'd consider stereo important. Never a bad idea to connect up with the engineer before the show to let them know what to expect and listen to any advice they may provide. If they tell you that the fronts only run mono, then you'd be better separating different instruments to mono outs.

Shaken&Stirred

@rad3d Thanks for sharing this - great advice.

Running the guitar through Bias FX, 2 amps, hard panned sounds really good, but I think you words are wise. With vocals, I like putting 40ms delay left and 60ms right, but the bar crowd probably won't appreciate it, so I'll mono-up on vox and git next rehearsal and give it a try.

I've been running a Roland CM-30 out the headphone jack for a personal monitor, but the extra outs to FOH might be a better option. regarding:

you'd have to make sure you had a way to provide a proper signal and gain level.

How would I approach this? Would I need a DI box? Long cable runs a concern here?

thanks again for the suggestions.

rad3d

@Shaken&;Stirred said:
@rad3d Thanks for sharing this - great advice.

Running the guitar through Bias FX, 2 amps, hard panned sounds really good, but I think you words are wise.

I do that on some of my tones, but never usually hard panned in a live situation unless it's truly for effect. If you do hard pan, trust the engineer to bring those pans in if necessary for coverage. You don't really want one side of the audience to only hear one of your amps all night. Always validate that the 2 sounds will sound good in mono and don't have cancelling characteristics when they are panned straight up.

The important thing about mono/stereo live is making sure that the signals you're feeding the sound engineer still allow each instrument to cut through. Too much dimensioning can turn your signals to mush and make them hard to mix.

With vocals, I like putting 40ms delay left and 60ms right, but the bar crowd probably won't appreciate it, so I'll mono-up on vox and git next rehearsal and give it a try.

I'd think the constant vocal delay would drive the engineer nuts, and would probably take your vocal out of center, where you generally want it. Let him know what you prefer, but trust him to make you sound good. What might sound good in phones, or in your own studio, might not work at all in a club. Larger rooms have natural ambience, and live rooms with lots of hard surfaces have natural delays and slap-backs - which would layer on top of whatever you're sending. Keep it dry, unless you need specific effects, if possible.

I've been running a Roland CM-30 out the headphone jack for a personal monitor, but the extra outs to FOH might be a better option. regarding:

you'd have to make sure you had a way to provide a proper signal and gain level.

How would I approach this? Would I need a DI box? Long cable runs a concern here?

Yeah - get a DI box, and find the proper mixer gain on your ICA4 to set as close to line level as possible - and then, don't change it. That being said, a personal monitor is not a bad thing. You may not always get what you want if you rely totally on house monitoring, so weigh that in to your decision of how to use those channels.

Good luck with the gig!

Shaken&Stirred

@rad3d makes perfect sense, thanks again!

Hmtx

All these tips are great!

lukesleepwalker

@Processaurus said:
One tactic i recommend to electronic musicians to whom stereo is important, is to carry a pair of 1/4" TRS to XLR male cables. Prosumer audio interfaces have balanced outputs, so you don't need a DI (or two DI's, for stereo, which can be an issue for small clubs, or shows with other acts taking the DI's) to send the proper balanced signal back through the snake to the mixing board. Just ask for "two mic lines" for your stereo output, and plug them in to your interface with the adapters.

This makes a ton of sense! Thanks for the tips here; quite valuable.

Also, many thanks to @rad3d for the pearls of wisdom...