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Apple DA/AD Conversion or External Device
I'm using a midi keyboard connected via Apples USB 3 CCK and using the standard 3.5mm headphone output. I'm wondering what the difference in sound quality might be using a connected audio device (say iConnect Audio4+, Focusrite or Roland Duo Capture) where the device does the DA conversion rather than the iPhone/iPad itself. Leaving aside EQ boosting etc., would the sound be better or could this introduce unwanted latency?
Comments
I would expect the increased latency would depend upon the device and interface used. If the purpose of the device were to create a digital recording, then you could have interfaces with better DACs than those available on the iOS device but there'd also need to be apps which supported those improved capabilities which can vary.
In terms of analog sound improvements, the audio interface could have a better DAC which could process the digital signal at a higher quality than the DAC for the headphone jack in the iOS device provided the app produces a better digital signal. In addition, the device may also be able to amplify the signal more efficiently/powerfully which becomes more significant with higher impedance headphones.
There are definitely some newer audio interfaces available with higher sampling/bit rates than were available a couple of years ago with features designed to be used by iOS devices.
If you want professional AD/DA, by all means go for one of the iPad compatible Apogee interfaces: they are more expensive than most, but their quality is unmatched!
Here's an article that discusses the issues in terms of lightning headphones versus headphones connected via the standard headphone jack. They're relevant to the quality issues with using an audio interface as well. You could get a headphone amp/DAC combo if you wanted to use standard headphones rather than lightning headphones or use your audio interface to monitor if it has that capability.
Sorry, I read the title but not the first post. You want to monitor while using a MIDI keyboard. Perhaps you can use the headphone jack indeed. If you already have the MIDI keyboard and the iPad you intend to use, why not simply plug in a cheap in ear headphone just to test if there is latency?
Reuben, Welcome to the forum! I have found external DA/AD to be vastly improved over internal. Some of the benefits:
1. More power to headphones that need it. - some high quality headphones don't sound great on iPad because the 3.5mm internal does not provide enough power. External often does.
2. Cleaner sound. I can't really explain but my Focusrite 2i2 just sounds better with all of my headphones.
3. Theoretically I think a small amount of CPU is conserved on the iPad because the conversion is happening off-board rather than internally.
Really I don't see any negative impact other than portability. With my Focusrite 2i2 I have to use a powered USB hub with extra battery pack and cables. Now that there is a CCK that charges, it should have no effect on battery life. (I haven't tested this yet, still using a standard USB to lightning adapter.)
I forgot to mention, all the compatible devices will be "class-compliant" so they will match whatever latency and audio settings are running internally on the iPad. That is why I always set my desired latency and audio rate in Ausiobus before I plug in my interface.
Audiobus runs between 128 to 1048 frames latency. If you aren't using Audiobus, some apps run at 64 frames. Either way, your external device will match it when plugged in.
Thing is though the iPad cannot run 96 khz audio by itself in AUM. But it can when you connect an audio interface that supports that quality. So I'm guessing the interface does matter.
It runs 96KHz audio with Auria Pro. It's nice to have 24bit/96KHz quality on iOS.
Without an audio interface ?
with the Apogee one. Sorry, failed attempt at dynamic reading.
Thanks for all the comments and that was a great article Infocheck. The Focusrite 2i2 doesn't appear to have midi input so I don't think would work for me. Also my midi keyboard only has USB midi (not 5 pin Din) so looking around - and correct me if I'm wrong - the only device that does audio and USB midi seems to be the iConnectAUDIO4+ (which has a host USB port). It a bit pricey though. It does seem from the comments however that audio can be improved quite a lot with an external device. This makes sense when you think of the space constraints that apple is up against in engineering their DACs.
You can use a USB audio interface, your USB 3 CCK, and a powered USB hub. Connect both the USB audio interface and the USB midi keyboard to your powered USB hub and connect the hub to the USB 3 CCK. With this configuration you can run the keyboard and the audio interface simultaneously and don't need to find a USB interface that has both audio and MIDI capabilities, just audio.
Wow... great information! I was wondering if that would work. I already have a powered hub so it seems I only need an audio interface. So how does the apple device "know" to send output digitally via lightning port rather than through the headphone jack? Or does it do both at the same time?
When it detects an audio interface it pretty much overrides the onboard sound chip. Even stuff like games or vlc sends audio to channel 1and2 of your soundcard. I've been using a novation Audiohub and the iconnectaudio4+ myself. Both are pretty good. There is 1 caveat to switching to 96khz. Some apps like the model 15 start to consume a lot more CPU. So at 96khz you won't be able to run as many apps as you can at 44.1 khz. Trade-off for better sound quality I guess.
You can route the audio to different sources depending upon which app you're using. In AUM or Audiobus for instance you can route audio to or from a connected USB audio interface. The DAW apps will have similar options. If you have an electric guitar, you can plug it into a USB interface and a guitar effect app like Jamup, Amplitube, or GarageBand will let you route audio from the interface through the effects. You'll have to understand the routing options/capabilities of the interface to see what's possible. Interfaces can frequently have options for phantom power so you can connect standard mics too. Depending upon your specific app setup, you can usually monitor from the interface itself via headphone or attached speakers or headphones plugged into the interface or headphones on the device.
You might be looking for an interface with just the most basic of connections as well and not need a bunch of different inputs/outputs in a USB interface.
You may want to check out the Yamaha AG series of audio interfaces.
You don't necessarily need a USB interface that is marketed for iOS either, just one that is standards compatible and doesn't require drivers to operate.
@Reuben Welcome to the forum!
Regarding usb interfaces, depending on what you want to connect, you might find my own choices useful --
For xlr microphones
http://www.centrance.com/products/mp/
For instruments with pickups
http://www.centrance.com/products/ap/
I find these pre-amps and A-D converters to be cleaner at higher gains than most others on the market, and I have tried loads. I also adore the portability, each is the approximate size of a fat cigar tube -- so small!
I use them connected as @InfoCheck described, I power my usb hub by connecting an external battery to one of the ports (usb A to usb A cable), plug interface & keyboard into the hub, plug the hub into CCK, and POOF, it all works!
I hope you manage to get everything working as you want it. Best of luck.
One very significant issue I neglected to bring up is that iOS devices will only recognize one USB audio interface at a time. You can connect multiple USB midi sources via a powered USB hub though. So how many audio connections you want to have running simultaneously is significant as you can't mix and match USB audio interfaces the way you can with USB MIDI by adding or subtracting them from the powered USB hub.
You can unplug an audio interface and plug a different one in but it could easily mess up your app setup so it can be best to close apps down and restart them after you've switched out a USB interface.
Apps can also vary in how they go about refreshing MIDI connections as well.
Exactly. So if you're ever planning on adding more inputs or outputs you'll have to get an entirely new interface. Better to get whatever you think you will require right at the start.
Thanks for all that. I sing and play guitar as well as the midi keyboard (not all at the same time!) so two audio in and switchable gain should be all I need.
there's another one:
it's most likely in vain as the IOS audio is already processed at 96khz internally
the process is called 'oversampling' and pretty standard im most of the 'better' synth/processing apps
(Nave, TF-7, WaveGenerator, Holderness, Amazing Noises, BIAS, JamUp come to mind...)
I can only tell by ear impression, @mauriziogiri may have more details
regarding preamp stages:
the absolute minimum entry is an Audient ID14 or ID22 to justify 96k
(for any of the sub $200 interface it's simply a waste of cash)
these are not specifically marketed for IOS , but I'm using an ID22 constantly, all IO ports available
same applies to microphones:
a Neumann TLM 193 or a Gefell M930 is your entry model if you consider 96k worth the effort
the perceived improvement between an audio signal recorded at 48 and 96 khz is subtle
(given the converters are the same quality level)
hence the class of microphones mentioned as an example where it might make sense at all
for all stuff below, say a Rode NT1a or an Avantone CV/CK you can safely ignore sample rate
there may be slightly more 'clarity' at 96k, but that's just missing aliasing
(the limits of the microphone's capsule still apply)
don't misunderstand this as devaluating Rode or Avantone - these mics are fine redarding their price
but they simple lack the quality and detail that justify the side effects of 96k processing
which may give an impression how subtle the difference really is - I never use 96k as a project's samplerate
the afforementioned internal 'oversampling' applies the improvements at critical points of the signal path
while it keeps system load relatively low
cheers, Tom
The use external AD/DA sounds tempting but iOS currently only supports one class-compliant audio-device at one time. For example I can not send sound to Behringer UCA-202 and use the iRig Mic HD to record at the same time...
Or record thru iRig Mic HD and use my nuForce uDac-2 to listen to the output...
precisely why i got myself an iconnect audio 4+. i'm using analog mics with it. it has 4 preamps so can easily connect 4 mics, 2mics and 2 guitars, 2 mics and a synth, 2 mono volcas and a stereo volca sample.... any combination in that manner lol.
the iCA4+ is a pretty smart interface:
I use it for an iPad and a Win-7 DAW and have a XP DAW (own interface) connected to it's line 3+4 and midi
so the iCA4+ drives the monitors for 3 systems and can interchange audio/midi between all of them
just the microphone preamps could be a bit improved ... then it would be perfect
(I don't mind for I have Audient and vintage Telefunken preamps for highly demanding takes)
cheers, Tom
Yeah, but for truly mobile use it's quite awkward...
That's why I love the 3.5mm jack when using the iRig Mic HD or randomly visit music/instrument-shops and sampling random instruments (they're ok with it!) using the Line6 MobileIn
I cannot figure out for the life of me how an iConnect and Telefunken Pre's can co-exist under the same roof. Wouldn't that be like having a global conglomerate fast-food chain dinner and then dessert at a Michelin 4-star Fair-Trade establishment?
it's in fact a tiny bit more complicated because those old preamps have a low impedance output transformer which MUST be loaded properly with about 300 Ohm...
regular line inputs with 10-40 kOhm aren't enough for that which introduces artifacts
(I use an additional high quality transformer for impedance matching)
aside from that you just connect the balanced out into the balanced line input of the iCA4+ or any other interface
line conversion is not that critical today, it's the preamp stage that matters...
ps: the Audient input stages do really well in comparison - of course they lack some of the low-mid magic of the transformers, but to my ears they sound more 'vivid' than the PGM2500 stages of RME oder the UAD Apollo
the iCA4+ is a digital audio router in the first place and my monitor output
I track with an Audient ID22 at a different location (the iPad is a very convenient container)
cheers, Tom
http://www.thomann.de/gb/zoom_u_24.htm?ref=search_prv_4_2
How about this one?
Seems to have everything and not too expensive?
My poor attempts at singing, playing, and my bank account have all conspired against me whenever I attempt to jump down the tech spec hole to Audio in Wonderland. There's an urge to climb the ladder of success, press a wet nose against the glass ceiling, pant, a loss of consciousness, the tongue unfurls, and drool drips down the shirt whilst ogling the anointed displaying their talents above.
Oh, I know that Telefunken pre's and iConnect CAN be used together, just as I know that one green rubberr Wellington boot CAN be worn along with one neon orange PVC Lucite-platform high-heel peep-toe pole-dancing shoe.
I just don't know why anybody would actually do so.
On the other hand, I forgot that audiophiles and pro audio folks do co-exist on this forum, so regardless of my pro audio confusion, I now realise that combining those items would make perfect sense from an audiophile perspective.
So, um, what I'm saying is ... never mind, please ignore me.