Consciousness could be a side effect of 'entropy', say researchers

[Deleted User]

There is obviously a continuum that ranges from single-cell organism all the way to human being, but how even the most basic form of consciousness (reacting to environmental stimuli) arises from inert chemicals is a very interesting and profound mystery IMO, and sadly will not likely to be solved scientifically in our lifetimes.

a few chemicals and a little electricity
make this sentence different from my sentences before
wtf?
we know nothing IMO

AudioGus

Is the discussion on this forum proof that my ipad is conscious?

[Deleted User]

it talks
it does things
it never understands you

hm
sounds pretty human to me

lukesleepwalker

Entropy sounds cool but it's useless to me unless I can get it to mind IAA transport controls.

[Deleted User]

do you want more or less entropy?

join the dark side
we've got cookies

u0421793

Just when I thought I've got all my entropy sorted out and put away and tidied…

Tritonman

@u0421793 said:
It is a bit of a flawed proposition to consider that consciousness arises from entropy alone. If that were the case, soil would be conscious, as would the clouds in the sky, and the asteroid belt would be becoming conscious. Of course, this may well be true, but there's no evidence that clouds and soil are conscious, as they have little to no decision making capabilities to evaluate and respond to stimuli, and make fundamental decisions such as act/no act; act forward/reverse/go round to the left/go round to the right. Before you know it, we've civilisation.

A most excellent observation.

skiphunt

@Tritonman said:

@u0421793 said:
It is a bit of a flawed proposition to consider that consciousness arises from entropy alone. If that were the case, soil would be conscious, as would the clouds in the sky, and the asteroid belt would be becoming conscious. Of course, this may well be true, but there's no evidence that clouds and soil are conscious, as they have little to no decision making capabilities to evaluate and respond to stimuli, and make fundamental decisions such as act/no act; act forward/reverse/go round to the left/go round to the right. Before you know it, we've civilisation.

A most excellent observation.

Speaking of whether the entropy and complex systems may or may not have "consciousness", there was a good podcast episode of Radiolab talking about tree and fungi networks, and how scientists are finding fungi to be more similar to animals than plants, etc.

The tone they use in this podcast, likely in an attempt to make sophisticated editorial more accessible for children, can get a little annoying, but it's a good episode none the less:

http://www.radiolab.org/story/from-tree-to-shining-tree/

ExAsperis99

@skiphunt said:

@Tritonman said:

@u0421793 said:
It is a bit of a flawed proposition to consider that consciousness arises from entropy alone. If that were the case, soil would be conscious, as would the clouds in the sky, and the asteroid belt would be becoming conscious. Of course, this may well be true, but there's no evidence that clouds and soil are conscious, as they have little to no decision making capabilities to evaluate and respond to stimuli, and make fundamental decisions such as act/no act; act forward/reverse/go round to the left/go round to the right. Before you know it, we've civilisation.

A most excellent observation.

Speaking of whether the entropy and complex systems may or may not have "consciousness", there was a good podcast episode of Radiolab talking about tree and fungi networks, and how scientists are finding fungi to be more similar to animals than plants, etc.

The tone they use in this podcast, likely in an attempt to make sophisticated editorial more accessible for children, can get a little annoying, but it's a good episode none the less:

http://www.radiolab.org/story/from-tree-to-shining-tree/

Ha. That tone is the Krulwich/Abrumad hallmark, which was so novel when Radiolab began. Now, I agree, it has become fantastically irritating and in the arsenal of every radio producer in the continental US.
But if you don't know Radiolab, start with the "Colors" episode. It's the invention of a new form of storytelling.

ExAsperis99

@ExAsperis99 said:

@skiphunt said:

@Tritonman said:

@u0421793 said:
It is a bit of a flawed proposition to consider that consciousness arises from entropy alone. If that were the case, soil would be conscious, as would the clouds in the sky, and the asteroid belt would be becoming conscious. Of course, this may well be true, but there's no evidence that clouds and soil are conscious, as they have little to no decision making capabilities to evaluate and respond to stimuli, and make fundamental decisions such as act/no act; act forward/reverse/go round to the left/go round to the right. Before you know it, we've civilisation.

A most excellent observation.

Speaking of whether the entropy and complex systems may or may not have "consciousness", there was a good podcast episode of Radiolab talking about tree and fungi networks, and how scientists are finding fungi to be more similar to animals than plants, etc.

The tone they use in this podcast, likely in an attempt to make sophisticated editorial more accessible for children, can get a little annoying, but it's a good episode none the less:

http://www.radiolab.org/story/from-tree-to-shining-tree/

Ha. That tone is the Krulwich/Abrumad hallmark, which was so novel when Radiolab began. Now, I agree, it has become fantastically irritating and in the arsenal of every radio producer in the continental US.
But if you don't know Radiolab, start with the "Colors" episode. It's the invention of a new form of storytelling.

_Please now return to the regularly scheduled thread.
_

AudioGus

I have never heard a definition of consciousness that didn't just result in an endless rabbit hole of other unsatisfactory definitions.

Aud_iOS

@Carnbot said:
Thanks for posting Sounds like logical reasoning and maths/probability. There's a higher chance of new connections and interesting things happen with larger amounts of randomization and chaos are introduced over time, which the universe has in spades. So consciousness most probably takes as long as the Earth has existed in a stable universe to be created given the right conditions. Although there seems to be less and less of it around where I live. Whether it's common in the Universe or can be recreated artificially is another interesting thing....

I think so - and coopting the concept of consciousness to a biologic function rather than some exulted human state is important, rather than claiming dominion over some natural order, or separation from it - even the article shared above has so many qualifying statements addressing these pervasive sentiments.

"The essence of philosophy provides no ground (bodenios) precisely for peculiarities, and in order to attain philosophy, it is necessary, if its body expresses the sum of its peculiarities, that it cast itself into the abyss a corps perdu (sich a corps perdu hineinzusturen)" ~ Hegel.

Aud_iOS

Also some of my fav books related to music/this stuff:

Jacques Derrida: Tympan - really insightful etymology of the "ear worm," back to Perseophone. (The Ear of the Other is also worth reading)

Kant - On a Newly Arisen Superior Tone in Philosophy - Kant at age 74 completely overhauled his ideas in this one.

Neuropolitics, Thinking, Culture, Speed by Connolly is also good on this stuff

And maybe throw some ecocritical stuff like Donna Haraway's NatureCultures and Deleuze & Guattari's Thousand Plateaus for the idea of the Rhizome.

knewspeak

Mmmmm, A sine of time?

db909

Consciousness Mechanics: The Movie. Ill admit I'm not usually a fan of these types of YouTube treatises but this was a good one.

null____void

My new magazine goes into this in extensive detail, assuming we're discussing astronauts, yes? https://www.dropbox.com/s/7rf7zci2wb4b5lo/Kenophobia & You, v1.pdf?dl=0

skiphunt

@db909 said:

Consciousness Mechanics: The Movie. Ill admit I'm not usually a fan of these types of YouTube treatises but this was a good one.

Hey, I haven't watched all 2hrs of this... only a few segments since it's thankfully broken up into chapter marker links in the comments

GREAT stuff! I have to replay and relisten with more concentration to get the concepts, but you're right... this is a good one. thx!

db909

@skiphunt ha glad you like it. It's definitely a "press pause and digest for a moment" type deal.

u0421793

This is a very good book (I've got it, over there).

JohnnyGoodyear

@MonzoPro said:
I'm reading an interesting book about the nature of consciousness at the moment, 'The Divine Spark'. Lots of theories bandied around: one being that our brains act as receivers, for a universal conscious transmission or some shit like that I dunno.

Always suspected you were one of those Gnosticism chappies....

AudioGus

@JohnnyGoodyear said:

@MonzoPro said:
I'm reading an interesting book about the nature of consciousness at the moment, 'The Divine Spark'. Lots of theories bandied around: one being that our brains act as receivers, for a universal conscious transmission or some shit like that I dunno.

Always suspected you were one of those Gnosticism chappies....

Enough DMT and everything is conscious at different frequencies. There I said it.

srcer

Talk about synchronicity. I was just thinking the other day about a couple articles I'd seen a while back relating entropy to intelligence and life itself.

http://physics.aps.org/articles/v6/46
https://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/

The disturbing thing about the second one, from my reading, is that it implies that anthropogenic global warming may not really be unique to humans per se, but the inevitable result of life¹ on the planet.

So, on that note, I'm just going to do this.

---

1. "From the standpoint of physics, there is one essential difference between living things and inanimate clumps of carbon atoms: The former tend to be much better at capturing energy from their environment and dissipating that energy as heat." ↩︎

null____void

James Gleick's new book on time travel is fantastic because it's 20% 'science' and 80% literature. Oh tee.

[Deleted User]

@AudioGus said:

@JohnnyGoodyear said:

@MonzoPro said:
I'm reading an interesting book about the nature of consciousness at the moment, 'The Divine Spark'. Lots of theories bandied around: one being that our brains act as receivers, for a universal conscious transmission or some shit like that I dunno.

Always suspected you were one of those Gnosticism chappies....

Enough DMT and everything is conscious at different frequencies. There I said it.

I'm reading that one next, not trying it though - I'm too scared

Carnbot

@Ocsprey said:
Also some of my fav books related to music/this stuff:

Jacques Derrida: Tympan - really insightful etymology of the "ear worm," back to Perseophone. (The Ear of the Other is also worth reading)

Kant - On a Newly Arisen Superior Tone in Philosophy - Kant at age 74 completely overhauled his ideas in this one.

Neuropolitics, Thinking, Culture, Speed by Connolly is also good on this stuff

And maybe throw some ecocritical stuff like Donna Haraway's NatureCultures and Deleuze & Guattari's Thousand Plateaus for the idea of the Rhizome.

nice list thanks

JohnnyGoodyear

@rhcball said:
James Gleick's new book on time travel is fantastic because it's 20% 'science' and 80% literature. Oh tee.

Hmmm. Thanks for the nod. I think there might be an OT book thread in our future....

db909

Speaking of time and music , The Music of Time by Preston Nichols. Batshit crazy stuff, likely bullshit, but damn if it isn't entertaining. The author implies that people prefer the sound of analog tape recorded records because the magnetic tape was able to pick up and record the subtle vibrations of thought and therefore the emotions of the performers and producers. Don't try to think too much about it.

Ps I read a lot of weird stuff

AudioGus

@MonzoPro said:

@AudioGus said:

@JohnnyGoodyear said:

@MonzoPro said:
I'm reading an interesting book about the nature of consciousness at the moment, 'The Divine Spark'. Lots of theories bandied around: one being that our brains act as receivers, for a universal conscious transmission or some shit like that I dunno.

Always suspected you were one of those Gnosticism chappies....

Enough DMT and everything is conscious at different frequencies. There I said it.

I'm reading that one next, not trying it though - I'm too scared

The first Strassman book?

null____void

@db909 said:
Speaking of time and music , The Music of Time by Preston Nichols. Batshit crazy stuff, likely bullshit, but damn if it isn't entertaining. The author implies that people prefer the sound of analog tape recorded records because the magnetic tape was able to pick up and record the subtle vibrations of thought and therefore the emotions of the performers and producers. Don't try to think too much about it.

Ps I read a lot of weird stuff

I remember seeing a doc on that guy, Disinfo I think, vaguely remember something about sexual "deprogramming" on a weird school bus.

Lady_App_titude

Sorry, I refuse to use consciousness until they add Audiobus support.