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interesting article! i have really been noticing this other critter they mention in the article over the past few years at work. 'high-ability individuals may underestimate their relative competence and may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.[1]'. This is a real pain when dealing with people who have an ability that largely leverages a natural talent and they assume they must be better simply because they work narder or the other people are stupid, less commited etc etc. They can often make life hell for others.
External: My radiator is broken and I need to learn how to fix. I need to learn XYZ in order to keep my job. My kid asked me how ABC works and I don't know.
Whilst I may of course have made life hell for others without knowing it due to my own under/over-estimation, I know for sure that the impact on my life from self-ability OVER-estimators has been faaaaaaar more unpleasant than from self-ability under-estimators.
N.B. I differentiate between silently thinking: "Gee my contribution can't be as good as they said because I didn't work hard enough" (Dunning Kruger) vs audibly verbalising to other(s): "Gee my contribution can't be as good as you said because I am the suckiest suckfest from Planet Suck" (manipulative compliment-fishing)
In practice, my experiences of the Dunning Kruger effect have been most problematic when the erroneous self-estimator uses their mis-estimation to abdicate responsibility for their fail and/or for fixing their fail, e.g. "What broke can't possibly be ME, because that fail = [what they really are], and I obvs = [mis-perception], so get [blame deflected elsewhere] to fix it."
I think self-aggrandising/deprecating obsessively and/or competing frequently for Gold in the I Haz Most Useless/Awesome Olympics represent issues other than Dunning Kruger.
Yeah, for me, I prefer to frame all my choices and choice preferences as coming entirely from inside me as a direct result of processing available info and lining up options according to my priorities. Framing such mechanisms as coming from outside leaves me feeling extra icky.
Or, to rephrase in the stryle of eating my own tail, I intrinsically choose to regard all extrinsics as also intrinsic.
As for music, I picked-up the tin whistle about 6 months ago. I practice almost daily for about 15 minutes. The decision was a combination of practically being able to practice something while spending time with my 15 month-old and having a nephew who plays Scottish tunes on the fiddle, and missing playing something acoustic. (If my son sees the iPad, forget about it, he wants to touch. But the whistle he's like meh.
Kahn academy. I'm 41. In H.S. i despised math and barely passed algebra. I am now 92% complete in pre-algebra on Kahn. My H.S. school obviously passed me just to pass me, cause algebra 1 by todays standard i do not comprehend. But i finally have a confident and actual understanding of the pre-algebra stuff.
Why do i care? Something about my late 30s made me began yearning to understand STEM as a way to feel connected with our forefathers.i really cannot explain the logic to it, but that setiment is simply there. Fortunately enough for me, i was laid off from my cozy job as a croupier (table games dealer) two years ago. So i took the opportunity to do some actual work and convinced the state to pay for training to get my foot in the door doing CNC. I'm now setting-up CNC jobs as well as running (not just a button pusher.) The thing i find so appealing about this work, is like that of a DIY musician, you have to know the trade plus some engineering knowledge, which is a life-long learning. Thus my pursuing Kahn.
Who knew a visit to the AB forum could neatly explain my current attitude at work? I have lately been suffering from some serious imposter syndrome (despite being, to all measures, a very competent and valued worker).
I am almost completely disengaged from what I should be learning (i.e. new programming languages, techniques, e.t.c.) and suspect this is the cause. Should Do --> Don't Want To --> Guilt --> Forced (bad quality) Learning --> Repeat.
I think this happens to most techies once they reach a certain age (I'm 45), it all becomes "just another bit of coding" on "just another project" and the desire to learn yet another language isn't there.
And this is the reason some either move sideways or into management, I suspect my time for a change is overdue by at least a couple of years.
Then again the pay is good and the home loan is nearly paid off so once that's clear then all bets are off employment-wise.
That sounds awesome, good for you!
Well if you're like most programmers, most of what you find yourself having to learn are just (largely pointless) variations on a theme. Look here's a new framework not hugely dissimilar from the last. Rinse, Repeat.
You could always try learning something genuinely new. Learn a functional language (or if you really want a challenge learn Haskell - Haskell Programming from First Principles is excellent). Learn Rust (the community is actually fun). Odds are you'll find some of that stuff seeping into stuff you do at work, or it may even open up more interesting opportunities.
The Dunning Kruger effect is an epidemic in the computer industry. Particularly if you compare to something like engineering.
I never know if I'm suffering from imposter syndrome, or Dunning Kruger. A bit of both probably. The standard of work/knowledge in my (incredibly self-important and aggrandizing) industry is pretty low in my experience. So when I compare my self to my peers - I'm pretty good. Very good probably. But oh my god, the stuff that I don't know, but have to pretend I do. The mistakes I see in work I did three years ago... My screw ups are legion...
Hopefully this doesn't come off as too douchey but It's my understanding the intrinsic/extrinsic distinction refers to the origin of the motivating event/force rather than how one reacts to the event/force. I'm with you on your general point that regardless of the origin of the thing that motivates you, ultimately it's down to individual choice. I share your love of individual agency.
I have my wife to thank for financial management. I am a reformed credit card fiend. I arrived in Oz 12 years ago with AU$60,000 debt. What did I spend it on? What DIDN'T I spend it on ...
Unfortunately the position I'm in leaves little scope for innovation, even in a senior role. It's your typical steady job but with the technical agility of an iceberg. When I'm not at work the last thing I want to do is code ... Hence the appeal of mobile music making.
I'm learning to use LumaFusion! Slowly but steadily, I'm developing a smooth workflow with it.
You may well be correct about your distinctions between origin/response vis à vis motivating forces.
I just think that this particular distinction serves only to divert attention away from what is useful.
Individual agency rox.
I used to think that way, but everyone else told me not to.
Somebody else wrote this.
Snitch
Good thread. Just catching up.
Over the past year I feel like I've learnt so much.
I walked out of my job, not knowing what I was going to do next but just knowing it was time to do something different.
A month later I started my own business and year on I've learnt a little bit about how to run a business, as well as a shed load about video making, VFX, animation and editing (a lot of which is actually very similar to using DAWs and music software).
I think my music making learning has probably tailed off a bit this past year as a consequence - but hey ho... Its just great to keep learning NEW and DIFFERENT stuff. The stuff others have written about above in regard to not learning new stuff at work I definitely recognise.
I run my own business too, and as it's web design and development I have to constantly take time out to stay updated with new technology and techniques. Then I have to find ways of applying what I've learned quicker and cheaper so I can keep one step ahead of the competition/cowboys that try and undercut the going rate.
Sinking slightly at the moment, in an over-saturated marketplace but hey-ho, more time for paint and noises.
>
I am not talking about 'self-ability under-estimators' but rather people who know full well what they can do, in terms of results, but assume their ability is not special and that they are actually the baseline or standard and that all others must measure up to them.
This is such a good thread. Great to read what everyone is learning.
I'm learning that I don't have much time ATM to "do music". My kids are 7 and 10, and I can't seem to make it past 9pm, or if I do I'm too tired to pick up my guitars, work on mixing and masterin on the ipad.
This ties into..... I am trying to learn how to be a better? More present/involved dad and husband.
I'm trying to learn to start running on a more consistent basis.
I learned how to make coffee in a French Press. Best damn coffee I've ever had!
I think that there is a significantly huge distinction between underestimating self-ability, and using accurately-assessed self-abilities as an excuse to behave like a scumbucket.
The former is a perceptual mistake about the self in relation to others.
The latter is a set of behavioural problems, imposing/forcing unrealistic requirements, sabotaging any useful cooperative efforts, and accomplishing only harm and general arsewipery.
I think the entitled person you referenced has little to do with Impostor Syndrome or Dunning Kruger, and is more likely to reside on the Narcissist spectrum.
Disclaimer: Armchair Psychologist = Me
i was just referring to this from the Dunning Kruger wiki... "Their research also suggests corollaries: high-ability individuals may underestimate their relative competence and may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others"
Mmmmmm coffeeeeeeeee ...
https://aerobie.com/product/aeropress/
@decibelle
You may find this of interest:
http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/
As a general antidote to 'gob-shitery'
Keep on trucking
. I think im probably in the honeymoon phase!
Compare and contrast:
... Assuming tasks easy for them are also easy for others - an internal belief
... Forcing a fallacy on others regardless of others - an external abusive behaviour
Not at all the same thing.
Haha. This suddenly became so meta.
@Igneous1 Whilst as you may have gathered I am a huge fan of clarity, I had some abysmally unpleasant experiences with a professor ...
[disclaimer advisory - impending rant alert]
... This professor pimped The Plain English movement at us according to his own personal preference and regardless of the syllabus, favouring ugly, clumsy, verbose constructions over elegant concise comprehensive phrasing, indiscriminately excluding all words over 6 letters long, with wildly fluctuating grading of all work according to Plain English criteria, despite this being a basic general English usage course.
[disclaimer advisory - rant over]
As a result of that I have retained my grrrrrowly distaste for obfuscation and intense love of clarity, as well as an appreciation for all the clarified medicine leaflets, signage, etc, whilst at the same time strictly avoiding The Plain English Movement itself, just because memories.
But, y'know, yeah, gobshitery = boo, clarity = woot.
Woah, that thing is very nice. Maybe I will get that next birthday.
Thanks for the heads up on it!
Being the son of an Irish Navvy, I'm well acquainted with all things 'gobsh*te' and that the F word should be used after 'the' generally
Back on topic, I used to work in Galleries and was involved with education programs and the like and the translation of overtly clever worded artists texts to language that all manner of folks could understand.