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I do not have any theory knowledge. Something i learned recently from a Ytube video was concept of interval in music and how it is used to create chords.
For any note (Root), if we play 3rd and 5th note together - it creates a chord (triad i guess).
R + 4 semitones -> 3rd note
3rd note + 3 semitones -> 5th note
so in terms of intervals this could be a formula to create chords
R, 4, 3 - creates a major chord
R, 3, 4 - creates a minor chord (is this correct?)
Anyone knows using similar formula above, how to create other complex chords, i know there are lot of othere names i have seen - major 7 , major 9, suspended, diminished etc..
Thanks
R, 4, 3, 4 - Major 7
R, 4, 3, 3 - Dominant 7
R, 3, 4, 3 - Minor 7
R, 3, 3, 4 - Half Diminished 7
R, 3, 3, 3 - Diminished 7
You can also have 9ths, 11ths and 13ths on the same principle.
I think that's right (after a while you just know the chords without really having to think about them).
Of course you don't have to play them in order. For example instead of CEG - you could play EGC - which is typically notated as either CMaj in 1st inversion, or C/E.
Thanks @cian
so by using same principle, below chords are correct?
R, 4, 3, 4, 3 - Major 9
R, 3, 4, 3, 4 - Minor 9
That was great for them.
However, most of us don't happen to be towering geniuses.
For those of us who lack that big huge giant pile of talent, theory knowledge and usage jumps our music away from its more usual "unformed/mess" category and into (at the very least) the "pleasant/interesting" category.
I think that justifying one's own lack of knowledge by pointing out that some towering geniuses also didn't have it ... um, no.
Besides which, I seem to remember hearing somewhere that one or more Beatles wished they had music theory knowledge and took some actual training in it.
I am thankful that I started music in school pretty young, 6th grade I started on snare drum in concert band, played snare, bass drum & tri-toms/quads through till 10th & then at the behest of my band director tried the Baritone horn (Euphonium) in 10th grade varsity & concert band. The rudiments helped my rhythm & the baritone helped me read treble clef.
When I started on guitar in the summer after 10th grade I thought my music experience in school would help. It did of course, but the single biggest help I got was from a guy I knew at the last Mom & Pop music store here in Vegas, Vesely's. He said two things: to learn the piano keyboard & know those 12 notes back to front & learn the circle of 5ths/relative minors etc, even if not memorized, just always have it around to look off the chart.
The piano keyboard helped me visualize the neck of the guitar and once I began songwriting the circle of 5ths and Nashville number system proved invaluable in teaching others my songs and in writing them. Also guitarists should get acquainted with the CAGED system of guitar chord & harmony layout.
This may all seem like common sense but I'd say 2 to 3 out of 5 musicians I meet either don't know this stuff at all or only have a very flimsy understanding of it. I've had dudes who know chord names and I'll think, "Okay, they know what their doing"' but then freeze if I say something like "Okay let's just do a I-IV-V here in D". It took me a few years to get really comfortable with all this but once it becomes second nature you don't even think about it.
TL;DR:
1)Know the piano keyboard & the way notes are laid out
2)A basic understanding of note values. Sight reading isn't a huge benefit but knowing basic melodic & rhythmic theory is.
3)Understand the circle of 5ths, the Nashville number system and the CAGED guitar chord layout
Yes, though I'm not sure if that works beyond 9.
The important thing to know is that major chords are all built on the major scale. There are 7 notes in a scale (the 8th note is the root note repeating). So if I play a 9th, it's actually the same as a 2nd. So in C major it would be the D.
The reason it's usually called a 9th is that typically (though you don't have to) you would play it an octave or more away from the root of the chord. So it might be CEGBD - not CDEGB. an 11th would be F. The 13th would be A
Similarly minor chords are built in the minor key. So take A minor (which is all white keys starting in A) the 9th would be B. The 11th would be D and the 13th would be F. To make things even more confusing, just because you're playing a 13th, doesn't mean you have to play all the keys that could be in the chord (typically you wouldn't).
You can also have a 6th (this is common in Jazz) - which is CEGA - though you''d often drop the G (the 5th). In Jazz that's a super stable root chord.
9ths, 11ths and 13ths are fairly advanced though. They're one of those things that once you have basic chord theory down are pretty easy to grasp - but impossible otherwise.
Music theory means that when you're searching for solutions to problems - you're more effective at searching. Sure blind luck might work. But there are more efficient ways. modal stuff going on there.
Thanks for all the advice, especially
There cant be many music theory books that start G'Day. Simon Bennett has written a really easy to ready guide that has got me past the sticky chord progression stuff. Lots of really nice informal and inspiring advice.
Going to test my newfound knowledge and analyse Interstellar Overdrive to see why I like it so much.
Sure...a different way to put it. I also liked what someone else described - Theory comes from music , not the other way. Thanks for your explanations in the above post.
@Richtowns I'm glad you're getting something out of it. Let us know if you have any epiphanies from your analysis.
Great one !!
Yup I agree to that one.. I found an old classical music song book where I'd marked off all the pieces that I could play perfectly. Now many years later I struggle to even read the music let alone play it. I used to be able to sight read the music and play it with ease
As many have alluded to, to me theory isn't the end game. Its another tool in the box. For some, it may help, and I'm one of those. I need the structure and definition that it offers, but I easily see that it isn't music...it doesn't even have an element that covers feel, so it can't be the end game. What it does is define a framework and offers a mechanism to communicate in a standardized language to others. What it doesn't do is explain how emotion fits into composition, although the tension and release thoughts attempt to convey it. If you think about it, how would you describe how to play something that moves you. You can talk about the harmonies, melodies, and rhythms, but how do you begin to describe how to articulate any of the emotions within the piece. Take theory for what it is...the framework to develop how you feel into sound....but with lots of missing pieces that only you can fill.
For me making music is like playing a game. I could read books or watch videos on game theory, but no need.
Technically, it's true that intervals of a 3rd come in two varieties, major and minor (4 and 3 semitones respectively) and chords built on 3rds are a stacking of those intervals. An interval of a 5th occurs because stacking two 3rds makes a 5th. However, it's a bit tedious to have to build chords by counting semitones (half-steps). If you can recognize a major or minor 3rd interval up or down from any note, you'll see things much faster.
There are 4 kinds of triads (3-note chords built by stacking 3rds.) In addition to major and minor, a diminished triad is two minor 3rds (i.e. C,Eb,Gb), and an augmented triad is two major 3rds (i.e. C,E,G#). What distinguishes those chords to the ear is that the 5th interval created is not a perfect 5th as it is with the more common major and minor triads. The flatted and sharpened 5th give the chords their distinctive restless flavors. A perfect 5th (7 semitones) is a static sounding interval -- it resonates with the natural overtones we hear in a single note played on pitched instruments.
In music where there's a recognizable tonal center (most music,) more important is how triads (and other chords) relate to the key the music is in. This is where knowing your scales is important. For instance, if you take a C major scale (C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C...) you can build triads simply from the scale. Intervals of a 3rd occur every other note... CEG, dfa, egb, FAC, GBD, ace, bdf -- or C Major, D minor, E minor, F Major, G Major, A minor, and B diminished. (I'm capitalizing the major chords.) Learn to think of the chords built from a major scale as the I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, and vii of that scale. A 7-note scale contains 7 triads. An example would be A relative minor, which contains the same notes as C Major but starting on A --- A minor is the relative minor of C Major. The triads are the same, A minor, B diminished, C Major, D minor, etc... but because their relationship to the tonal center is different (A instead of C), they take on a different function. In a major key, the I, IV, V triads are major triads. In a relative minor key, the i, iv, and v triads are minor triads. Once you know scales and the chords they contain, you can move on to understanding things like how chord progressions are built, ways to modulate from one key to another, etc..
Start with major and minor scales, as they make up a lot of conventional music. Then you can follow the same "rules" with other scales (modal, ethnic, etc.). There are also many common pentatonic and hexatonic scales (5 and 6 notes, respectively.) You can build chords from them, but they are usually used melodically over the chords and chord progressions you've already become familiar with.
When it comes to other chords, it's also faster not to count semitones. 7th chords are widely used, so learn to immediately recognize the two varieties of 7th interval, a major 7th and a minor (or flatted) 7th, and how to make a 7th chord from a triad. And again, chords are built from scale notes, and their sound and function change within the context of key or tonal center. In C Major, add the 7th to each triad -- CEGB, dfac, egbd, FACE, GDBF, aceg, bdfa, you get some 7th chord varieties. C Maj7 is a major triad with an added major 7th interval (C up to B ). D min7 is a minor triad with an added minor 7th interval (D up to C). G7 (dominant 7) is a major triad with a minor 7th interval added (G up to F). Bdim7 is a diminished triad with a minor 7th added (B up to A). 9th chords can be created by adding a 9th (or 2nd) to a 7th chord.
Many chords we hear used aren't built with just intervals of a 3rd, but they are often named for how they relate to or are altered or extended forms of triads. A suspended chord raises (sometimes lowers) the 3rd of the chord. Example: C,F,G, or Csus4. The E in the C major chord is raised to F. Our ears can hear the F wanting to resolve down to E, and it sounds like a suspension, however depending on context, a suspended chord can sound static (not requiring resolution.) Lowering the 3rd to a 2nd is sometimes referred to as a suspended 2 chord, as in Csus2, which contains the notes C,D,G. You can also add any note to a triad. Add a 6th interval to get a major 6th chord (i.e. C,E,G,A,) or a 9th to get what could be called a +9 or +2 chord (i.e. C,D,E,G.) Chords can also be built from intervals of a 4th. Jazz harmonies are often built with perfect 4ths (i.e. C,F, Bb, Eb.)
When you're learning this kind of stuff, it might seem an obstacle to just getting on with playing what you can hear, but if you force yourself to think in terms of the theory, it becomes second nature. I can't speak for everyone, but understanding music in this analytical way can really help and guide your ear, not to mention give you the ability to communicate with other musicians.
I try to follow the metaphorically suggestive thinking of the man who once said "A flute with no holes isnt a flute and a donut with no hole is a danish".
Shameless low-effort quote contribution (given I'm as well versed in musical theory as the average otter):
"The pauses between the notes, that's where the art resides!" ~Artur Schnabel
I think Keith Richards said something similar about the secret to the Stones sound. Or was it Malcolm Young about AC/DC's swing?
Somebody said something somewhere about this, this is 100% true.
I thought Dave Matthews did The Space Between.
Anywho, I agree about spaces/pauses between notes. That's what I was alluding to in my first post with "Simple is best/less is more" -- not trying to jam too much into the sonic space.
Though I'm not sure anything in music is 100% true. Maybe 99.999999999% true, like Amazon's durability.
The thing about space between the notes I think is absolutely spot on. If you typically noodle for song ideas by trying to play phrases as you imagine they'd be in the final song, instead try playing as sparsely as you can absolutely stand. You may find you're able to bang out a foundation for an entire song very quickly. You will have defined the space to fill so to speak, then you just fill it. You probably don't need to do that every time but when shit just isn't working, I find this to be effective.
OK quick tip for anyone wishing to be able to play major or minor scales, and to be able to find them on a keyboard without needing too learn the actual notes.....
Remember this sequence - TTSTTTS - for some eagle eyed peeps this may look familiar.
T = Tone (i.e 2 semitones), S = Semitone. On a keyboard this equates to Tone = Skip a key, Semitone = key next door.
The available notes in the western scale are C, C#,D,D#,E,F,F#,G,G#,A,A#,B
So take the scale of C major......Starting at C, T = skip a note we get D, then skip another we get E, then next note we get F.......do you see where this is going ? If you apply the pattern above (TTSTTTS) you will end up with C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C which is C Major - or on a keyboard all the white keys (Which is why the pattern may look familiar - The T's are where the black keys are)
You can use this pattern starting at any note on the keyboard to find the major scale for that key.
If you want to find a minor scale then it is the same pattern but starting from a different place.....
A minor is the relative minor to C Major...meaning it uses the same notes, just starting from a different position.
If you start at A and play all the white keys you will get a Minor..So using the TTSTTTS pattern you just start at the 6th place instead of the first....TSTTSTT
Try it out on a keyboard and you will see......the same pattern works for a single string on a guitar but not when changing from one string to another.
All you need to remember is TTSTTTS, and to start at 1 for major and 6 for minor.
Once you have this engraved in your brain, start thinking of the notes in a scale as I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, I or 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1
So again using C Major...
C= 1, D=2, E=3, F=4, G = 5, A = 6, B = 7, C = 1
To find all the base chords (triads) for the scale just use 3 notes leaving a space in between each one....starting at the C
1-3-5 = CEG
2-4-6 = DFA
3-5-7 = EGB
and so on........This works for any scale.
So remebering these 2 relativeley simple things you can find any Major or Minor scale and its base triads on a keyboard.
Thank you! excellent post ...lots of information. Will need some time to digest all this.
I actually wanted to understand the circle of fifth's concept - i see a lot of similarties in the naming - I, II V etc..in what you explained above.
How are both these topics - Circle of Fifth and chords, related?
All i know about the circle of fifth is - something related to chord progression, that is going from a stable sound to unstable sound (tension) and coming back to stable sound, again I could be completely wrong.
Thanks for the info. But isn't this "TTSTTTS" pattern to recognize a scale?
I find it easier to use a formula like - R,4,3 to make chords. Its like you can close your eyes and start on any key, find the 4,3 intervals using your finger and there you have a chord!!
R43 works for a major chord....but how does it help you know that you need a major chord in the first place ?
The TTSTTTS helps you find which notes are in the scale...and chords are built on scales, so the 135, 246,357,461,572,613,724 helps to find all the base chords for that scale....2 things to remember to find any chord in any major or minor scale...
okay, i re-read your previous post ...now i understood. Thanks.
if I am not mistaken this "TTSTTTS" pattern can only be applied to western scales to get the chords, right? how about using them to find chords in middle-eastern/indian scales?
Yes it only works for major and natural minor scales, as well as the associated modes. The eastern scales use quarter tones too so it won't work for them.
You're welcome.
Circle of 5ths is a big topic that I would have to do more thinking than I have time for to try to describe fully.
In major and minor keys, our ears hear three primary scale steps and chords built on those steps. The tonic is the root (I), the dominant (V) is a perfect 5th up from the root, and the subdominant (IV) is a perfect 5th down from the root. As an example, in the key of C major, these notes are C, G, and F, respectively, and with all major chords on those scale steps. Another example: in Ab minor, the notes are Ab, Eb, and Db. The quality of the IV and V chords built on those steps depends on the minor scale being used. In relative minor, they are both minor chords.
The interval of a perfect 5th (7 semitones) is strongly consonant and plays a ubiquitous role in Western music. When an instrument is tuned using equal temperament (as typical in Western music,) starting on any note, playing up or down 12 intervals of a perfect 5th goes through all twelve pitches of the chromatic scale and brings you back to the original pitch -- starting on C we can go up, C-G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#-G#-D#-A#(Bb)-F-C. Going down, C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-Gb(F#)-B-E-A-D-G-C. (Note that I switched between the enharmonic equivalent sharp or flat at one arbitrary point in each cycle.) You can go only up or down in 5ths to end up on a pitch several octaves up or down, but you can also move up and down to stay within one octave so as to end up on the identical pitch you started with. A "circle" of 5ths is generally used to illustrate this because up and down can be represented as clockwise and counter-clockwise.
Major and minor scales that are a perfect 5th up or down from each other are in adjacent keys. When two keys are adjacent to each other, they are as close to identical as possible in that they differ by only one note. C major has no sharps or flats. If you go up a 5th to the adjacent key of G major, it has one sharp (F#). A 5th down from C is F major, which has one flat (Bb). A 5th up from G is D. D major has 2 sharps (F#, C#). A 5th down from F is Bb. Bb major has 2 flats (Bb, Eb). You can go either way around the Circle of 5ths and see that each adjacent key is one sharp or flat different than its neighbor. The relative minor keys (or scales) work the same, as they are the same as major scales with a different tonal center (just substitute A minor for C major, or Eb minor for Gb major, etc.) The significance of this is that modulation of key within a musical composition flows most smoothly to and from adjacent keys because they are closely related by virtue of sharing so many common notes with each other.
The most common chord movement in major and minor keys is the V-I (5 to 1) because we hear such a strong resolution. In addition to the strong movement of roots by a 5th (ex. G-C), helping to propel this movement is the strong tendency of the 7th degree of the major scale to resolve a half-step up to the root (In C major, B up to C). In other words, the 3rd of the V chord resolves to the root of the I chord (ex. the 3rd of G major to the root of C major.) This is the primary reason for what's called the Harmonic Minor scale, where the 7th degree is raised a half-step so as to create this "leading tone." For example, the 7th degree of the C relative minor scale is Bb, but it is raised to B natural in C Harmonic Minor. In addition to this, the dominant chord (V) in a key is often enhanced as a dominant 7th chord. This creates two leading tones and stronger movement, tension and resolution. Take G7 to C as an example. The 3rd (B) in G7 wants to resolve a half-step up to C, as previously discussed, while the 7th in G7 (F) wants to resolve a half-step down to the 3rd in the C major triad (E). As you go around the circle of 5ths, dominant 7th chords have this strong tendency to resolve to the adjacent key, and so you find this to be used routinely when modulating from one key to another. The dominant 7th chord sounds "unstable" creating tension, leading to resolution.
The Circle of 5ths, or movement by 5ths, is not limited to the chromatic scale or for modulation from one key to another. Very common chord progressions move by 5ths diatonically, meaning they stay in one key. The most common chord progression is probably the ii - V - I (2-5-1). In an example using C major, we get the chord progression D minor to G major to C major. Note that D-G-C is a movement by 5ths. On the root of D, we use a minor chord because it's the ii chord in C major. It's common to enhance the chords in the progression, like Dm7-G7-C. These chords are still firmly in C major. We can carry it further: Am - Dm - G - C, or vi-ii-V-I, or using all 7 chords in C major with 7ths added -- FMaj7 - Bdim7 - Em7 - Am7 - Dm7 - G7 - C. All the notes making up these chords are in C major (no sharps or flats,) but note that F to B is not a perfect 5th. That's the nature of the diatonic scale. In any case, the composer is free to alter the chords at any time, so in the above progression you could substitute A7 for Am7 and it will sound like a temporary modulation to the key of D. That's the nature of the Circle of 5ths.
Anyone learning jazz, for example, practices comping and soloing to progressions derived from the Circle of 5ths, even going all around the circle with no resolution (never landing on a "I-chord.") The ii-V-I progression is often featured, an 8-bar example: (Bm7 - E7 - Am - A7 - Dm7 - G7 - C - C) where we have a ii-V-i in A minor, a ii-V-I in C major, and a A7 chord used as a bridge to the Dm chord. The possible permutations are endless, and if you look though jazz and pop standards you'll find a million variations. There are other related substitutions or alternatives derived from the Circle of 5ths, as well, so the ability to navigate effortlessly through these kinds of movements is a skill many musicians acquire.
@lovadamusic Thanks, I feel Ive moved on quite a bit. Clear description and nice examples when the going gets tough. I did loose it in the penultimate paragraph but I got distracted thinking if you do this for a living. These things usually require a couple of reads for me and a few practicals to test it actually works. If after that I can explain it to my gf it means Ive learnt it. Really nice writing, thanks again for sharing
@lovadamusic thanks so much for taking time to explain the concept in detail.
My pleasure. But after this I realize, once you're familiar with the language, it's a lot easier to play it than it is to explain it.
I totally understand, sometimes it is difficult to explain to others arts/music stuff especially if the other person is not at your level. But you did a good job, the information is overwhelming and i need some time to understand and then i will try to put this is to test. It may take some time...but i will get back to you with questions.
Thanks again.