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Possible improvements in sound quality between iPad and PC/Mac
I'm using the standard USB-Lightning cable between my desktop and my iPad. Audio gets streamed either via studiomux, or via the OS X integrated function. Every few minutes, i have a nasty crackling sound, that somehow comes off like a static discharge that somehow "has to happen" between these two devices. Other than that, Audio is fine.
So i was wondering, if i should invest in something like the AudioQuest Jitterbug, or some quality USB-Lightning cables. http://www.audioquest.com/usb_lightning/cinnamon
Has anyone tried out something similar yet?
Comments
Sounds like a buffer error. Have you tried increasing the number of samples ?
Yes, actually it doesn't really sound like a buffer error, and seems to be totally unrelated to CPU usage, latency settings etc. It only happens every few minutes, lasts for a few seconds, and then it is gone. It feels like either some ground currents discharging, or some clock realigning. I guess i'll have to post an example...Still tempted at getting a better cable though
Hmm. Are you sure there isnt something that keeps hogging the cpu from time to time on the background? But yea that doesent sound like typical buffer size issue. But some CPU heavy background thing hogging resources from time to time(causing basically wrong buffer size during that CPU load). Probably this wont be the issue, but worth checking out
You would mean on the Desktop? It's an older overclocked i7-3700k quad core. I ran tests in minimal cpu load environments, like with the Hosting AU microdaw and 0 plugins loaded, literally just the iPad wired through to the speakers, it still happens. It's an interesting theory though, i'll take a closer look at that...
I would check both ipad and desktop. Dunno if some ipad apps do this. I think facebook is at least quite heavy on the background(or used to be at least) and does its own things on the background so that they can spy on you
Huh, ofc no facebook app on my iPad :-) Yuck. Thought about the iCA4+, but i don't really need it if i can solve this problem. Too bad nobody seems to have experimented with higher end USB Lightning cables yet.
Done further testing all on latest iOS/MacOS, studiomux 3.0 sounds MUCH better than the integrated MacOS function to stream audio from iOS to MacOS. It sound much more "open" like a veil had been lifted! Setting everything to 96khz brought a significant improvement, especially Animoog on 96khz sounds amazing. Klicks/Dropouts are very rare, but i can still spot them from time to time. I guess i'm getting that AudioQuest cable next...
Sounds like clock. I use Hosting Au w/ studiomux quite a bit. Some other possibles.. don't use Link in your scenarios, make sure buffers are same on desktop/studiomux/whichever apps. Where are you sending/receiving clock from? That could def. be the culprit. And like others mentioned, other traffic can be the issue - itunes syncing, And any traffic on USB (not just the lightning adapter connection) can be the issue. I've read all about the jitterbug, and some of those insane cables (something called Mercury I think around 500) I've been very tempted to pick up this from iFi - they also make a USB cable that is split in two to isolate power from data to go with it: ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-iusb3-0/
That is very interesting, thanks for sharing! I honestly believe, that this is a field that gets neglected by the "digital is digital bro" crowd. But i think you're conflating Midi clock / Link with USB clock in this case. Anyway, i guess this is the way to go to get the best sound out of the iPad...
Only in that a Studiomux manual says not to use Link with it, if using a USB connect - think it's around page 9 of their manual. I agree with the overlooking - I was quite obsessed with it this past year, ultimately ended up redoing my studio into all Ethernet audio/midi/video because of clock, latency etc issues on other transports. Link is terrific, but has a 3ms latency, but it's an average of less than 3, so varies. USB uses cyclical redundancy checking as a way of reading packets, which is inherently error prone. I still can't figure out the various inherent latency points in iOS, they vary with iaa, au's, background audio, and developer choices, amongst others... anyhoo, since yours occurs at regular intervals, it reads like the buffer is filling up, or not!
Thanks for these tips! I was planning to build a new rig anyway, and am currently researching mainboards with USB-ports that have a better noise isolation, like the http://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-AX370-Gaming-5-rev-10#kf I figured before i invest in that ifi or Audioquest gear, i'd test this first. Wanted an 8-core for some time now...
Wow, does that mean there are 2 DAC-up ports? That would be a cool feature. PCIe would be nice too for plugin hosting and stuff (in my case I did some upgrades on a Dell I had here). Dual Uefi bios too. What's it go for? Only other thing I'll add in, regarding the peripherals, there's definitely an ongoing argument about their efficacy, there's no testing standards or monitoring bodies of course, and from what I've seen in the most disinterested tests, is failure to show markable improvements. I'd probably invest in a good conditioned power supply before any of this, with a several minutes long auto-shutdown - unless you never have power outages where you are. For me, Apple official connectors have been the best, excepting this really cool one: http://a.co/1hgR6yx which is gigabit POE w/ Lightning (Data) connections. With iOS 10.3 the ethernet connection shows now in settings, and you can "Open in" right to mac OS Server to take advantage of the gigabit ethernet Midi/Audio
- with the forthcoming 802.1 TSN standard (AVB's outgrowth) - the clocking/latency of audio/video/Midi will be dramatically improved as its primary use is industrial automation where sensors must have guaranteed latency.
I attached a couple pics showing the types of file sharing natively supported with OS X server
- all of those can be served from the Mac (there are some more I don't use, or haven't configured) - if you're mostly tethered (directly to Mac, or ot Switch/router etc via ethernet), the file access with server only requires getting to and tapping the icon, then you have access to any shared folder on the Mac. If you map iCloud drive to the desktop - and the rest of your cloud drives, and app file folders there as well you're 1 or 2 taps from access. If the app doesn't support open in/document picker - then I connect to my server manually, using Transmit app. In my case, I connected my Dell Inspiron, which has a gig ethernet jack to the Mac via the thunderbolt-to-ethernet connector. This, I discovered, enumerates AVB automatically. I set up File Sharing between the two, moved all my samples and everything else I could over to the Dell, and shared that folder to the Mac. I can't quantify the transfer speeds, but I'll say it's no different from opening any file directly on the Mac, whether from iOS to Mac, or Pc, etc. I'm using Bome Network Pro
, which has only been out a few months, in conjunction with IP MIDI on the PC, for MIDI between the 2 computers and iOS. It enumerates 16 MIDI Channels (1 of 16, not 16 of 16). Another good part, after you make the first connection, it autostarts on both systems, and never disconnects. For Audio, I'm using the ICM4+ for now. It's rather limited in pass-through audio with 3 channels, but the only decent alternative I've found is Dante, but when using direct computer connections, it's limited to 44khz - which is one of quite a few proprietary aspects of that and similar ethernet MIDI/Audio protocols (AES/EBU AES67 MADI Ravenna Net Rocknet) - each of these requires expensive and proprietary hardware implementations. But with the PCIe connection that computer has, you might check out Digigrid for (Mostly Waves) Plugin Hosting/recording etc, each of the above has similar products - Focusrite has Rednet which is Dante, Motu has a line of AVB interfaces - they also have a 5 port AVB switch which is only around 250 - Netgear and a few others also have several AVB compliant switches, with an 8 port around 150 or so (this is what I have, incidentally though it's a 16 port). The Avnu alliance has a good list, and now the LPD's which are labeled TSN. Behringer has one as well, Presonus too - but both are ill-documented and seem kludgy.
I went with ethernet because it' the only protocol where any timing related improvements are happening, and with TSN, and general adoption by many audio interface providers, along with Apple's recent moves in the way of automation via acquiring Workflow, ethernet enumeration, and file sharing - it seems the most future proof, and definitely beats USB an UDP which will always be serial and lossy connections, where some manner of latency and jitter will occur.
Similarly, if you want to add cameras to your rig for any reason, then timecode becomes more complicated, as you deal with SMTPE or RTSP/RTMP, encoders and the like - depending if you want to stream/record etc, or keep video in sync with audio Live, with AV FX processing going on. With a 10gb AVB switch (about 300 for the Netgear one) you can do this easily with 4k Video, with an IP Camera that has the proper encoder/decoder on board along with a clock generator. I used to design commercial camera systems, and I can say those providers are more on this stuff than blackbox/Telestream and the like, because of chain of custody requirements and the like. Pelco/Extream and the like all have offerings (POE w/ Timecode /Rtmp/sp translators etc).
When a better software comes along (like Dante but with unlimited channels and up to 192khz on 32+ channels) then I will drop the ICM4+. I do like that it enumerates between Mac/PC/iOS which is necessary for me - but I don't like the loosy port connections, and that (for me anyway) I can't use it with RTP MIDI - and I don't care for ASIO. I think they shouldn't have relied on 3rd party implementations for the central components of their releases. I also don't like their proxy style forum response, with the familiar "I'll get back to the incredibly busy team, who are so busy working on your behalf, that they outsourced all customer connections to an ill-informed 3rd party. Lastly, to pile on some more, it uses all .syx for communication, which is kinda cool, but slow and unreliable.
I'm kinda hopeful there will be a next iteration of the BomeBox, with Audio and Gigabit ethernet. They really know their stuff, and MIDI Translator Pro is crossplatform. I find it to be the best utility for knowing exactly what app and hardware MIDI Ports are available. Most of the time with the ICM4+ I see MIDI is moving through it via Bome, but it rarely blinks like that's the case.
For performance, I like ethernet as you get a private, very fast, reliable network for all your equipment, with minimal cords and power requirements. I plug all my MIDI devices into this Aukey Hub w/ 5 3.0 ports, but also a gigabit ethernet jack to connect to the switch. Obviously most of these are still 1.1, but you get the MIDI over ethernet this way, which is channelized, so you don't have to worry about downstream issues and the like. I did have to make external devices in Audio MIDI Setup - as the device names don't (for me so far) enumerate over the ethernet connection(probably because they are logical devices now). I found I could create an external MIDI device in Audio MIDI setup, using proper device ID etc., and then connect it to the actual device ports. But ultimately this wasn't necessary, and Apple recommends not to use play-through devices - I think they induce latency because they are outside the hardware abstraction layer. I found this Core Audio Overview really helpful, and on Supported Audio File and Data formats, these conversions also take time
Apologies for droning on, I've been kinda obsessed with this, and I'm in the middle of writing a market overview report, so I have a bunch of info at hand. Hope it provides some utility.
Holy shit, what a post! Gonna take a while to comprehend all of that stuff. Thank you so much for all that info!
( edit - 2nd pic should be 1st) 2 more maybe relevant:
I think i solved it! No more dropouts so far. This is my configuration:
The screenshot that you posted looks to be from an older OS X version. I've created a combined audio device in the Audio Midi Setup (Combo), and declared the iPad, or to be specific the studiomux iPad device the clock master, and activated the drift correction on my Teac Dac.
I was already chilling in bed when i read your huge post, made me get back up and back to work! The ethernet iPad thing blew my mind. I did not know that this was possible. Never crossed my mind, i'm a little ashamed now, since i work in that field
This is crazy shit. And it makes so much sense to do it this way, since the protocols are all in place already. Never thought i'd use OS X server again. I was sure that "App" was obsolete, killed by Synology and co. Abandoned by Apple when they abandoned server grade hardware...
What i don't yet understand in your solution, is how the iOS device streams audio via Ethernet, via which protocol? Wouldn't this have to be implemented into iOS, or in a Host Application like studiomux?
Then the next point, the iCM4 transmits audio??? Great company, really. Why do they call their fucking device iconnectMIDI when it also streams audio? I would have bought it already if i had known that, lol.
You sir, blew my mind, THANK YOU.
I'm gonna have to think about what i'm gonna go for next. The possibility of using my (fictional at this point) new 8-core as a server for plugins makes me tingly. For now audio from the iPad is good, now that i solved the problem with the USB clock. So maybe just fuck it, save more money for the upcoming AMD 16-core desktop cpu
Cheers!
Glad you had some success. Yep, screen shot is from a previous version - Apple still uses USB 2.0 (Audio) - which, unlike USB (Audio) 1.0 doesn't allow for User control of the Master Clock Domain, so in an aggregate device, if an interrupt occurs, Apple's Clock Server chooses which device to next be the clock source. I'm using some virtual devices created by LoopBack Audio, as part of an aggregate device. In LoopBack you can nest one virtual device in another - this is useful for say, creating a Podcast with audio inputs from FaceTime & Skype + microphone, with ability to play in some background music via iTunes, and record it all out on separate channels etc. But, given the lack of Qos etc., in web chat clients, there's a good likelihood of an interrupt causing the master clock to look for the next device with a signal synchronous to its own. LoopBack's documentation doesn't contain any info on how it processes clock, but I know it must, because it shows and functions as a default Core Audio Device. So I emailed them and eventually found out they inject about a 20ms latency into the stream, which I believe, is per hop on a multi-input LoopBack device. And as the documentation notes above, developers can use their own DSP inside of the Caf - and none of them that do (that I know of) publish the DSP details so the relevant efficacy of those transfers could be understood. Anyway...
Yes, the ICM4+ does what's called audio-pass through. I frankly haven't used it, because plug my iPad into my switch + Hub with that lightning data/Ethernet dongle I posted above. The ICM4+, for me anyway, won't enumerate the Network MIDI Session, which I use for the Ethernet stuff, so I just have the 2 Host ports going out to Mac/Pc & Ethernet out to Switch. Interestingly, the ICM4+ uses the USB Audio 1.0 Standard - which is also still in use on Windows. I'm guessing the ICA4+ does as well. The USB-IF released back in October the USB Audio 3.0 standard. It's a release I hope gets much attention, as it enables every USB 3.0 Audio port (i.e. USB-C) into an ambisonic and vibrasonic listener/beacon. These are used for advertising - with all the accelerometer, HealthKit, etc etc available at ultrasonic frequencies, which is all baked into the 3.0 Audio standard.
Wouldn't be there ways to isolate your Dante network via VLANs? Since VLANS work on Layer 2 and Dante on Layer 3, you could maybe implement a QoS that way. So you don't use the audio pass through? Does iOS already support Dante? How do you have both connected, your ethernet PoE dongle and the ICM4+, and why?
USB Audio 3 standards sounds promising, with all that available bandwith and the strong isolation of the interfaces, there should be so much more possible. But, isn't the iPad Pro 12 inch the only iPad atm, that can natively even handle USB 3 connections? So it would take a few years i guess, to see the market adopt the technology...
interesting reading about all that network stuff.
I still rely on optical connections to route between systems (WinXP, Pro Tools TDM, IOS), which is quite straight.
WinXP?? Ok.
So a little update, the same method that got studiomux to work crackle/dropout free also works great with the inter device audio mode. I'm gonna use this now because apps loading in studiomux via IAA is a pain. Works 50% of the attempts at best. The sound quality is very good right now, it sounds direct, clear without any hints of digital noise/artifacts etc. Still, I'm just curious if better cables, usb port treatments could improve it even more...
hard to tell - you may post some audio examples, which usually makes it much easier to tell sync problems from interrupt/buffer related stuff.
44.1 or 48 khz doesn't make much difference, but in 96khz the aliasing effects disappear, which is automatically perceived as a 'clearer' tone in most setups.
But: converters DO have a 'sound', after all they ARE analog components
Some may have a great tone, despite inferior specs.
(ot WinXP is a piece of shit, but it doesn't change anymore and I'm used to it's look. The only VST plugins I use are a couple of Valhalla reverbs and some stock devices in SAW-Studio - all the other stuff comes from a DSP card and is top notch)
I solved all the problems via the aggregate device and enabling the drift correction on my Teac DAC, the quality right now is very very good. Just my research has made me curious if it can get even better :-) And to OT: I would NEVER say that about WinXP, the first OS i ever loved. I was 18 when it dropped and it was beautiful
Wouldn't use it anymore though, for security reasons alone.