Loopy Pro: Create music, your way.
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Comments
I bet the universe ain't done yet dude. (coughs)
I've had enough of randomness of the weather which makes me more appreciative of the total control I have over my music.
Great, one of a kind post
Nasa says so, but i cant imagine stars and planets just pop out of nowhere at the edge of space.
I think i need something stronger to smoke before i can imagine this new theory.
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/nasa-s-hubble-finds-universe-is-expanding-faster-than-expected
Screw owterspace man! Innerspace!
I'm not really including Fugue Machine as generative. It might be thought of as highly 'composed' with an added process of that four-way utilisation split after the composition, but there should be no real surprises in what you get out (if you had the time to analyse it). Should I say the same about Oscilab? That there's no surprises, if only the time was invested in working out what the outcome should be? Well, it is increasingly further away from our normal human comprehension in terms of predictability of outcome - orders of complexity further. Same with Different Drummer, I'd say. But then, What about NodeBeat and Xynthesizr? You'd be lying if you told me you could confidently predict what they were going to do at any given time ahead of time, I'd suggest.
The other aspect is what and how much influence you have - what do you poke or what levers do you alter in order to introduce your governing influence into the machine? In some cases (Fugue Machine) all of it is up to you, and is (should we call it this?) a first-order influence in that everything you did has a fairly simple transparent reason to become what the app is doing. At the other end of the spectrum, there's apps where what you do goes into some mystery connection of cogs and hamster wheels and the result is a total surprise.
Then there's Quincy, which whatever you do it just does what the hell it likes with no apparent relationship to what you're doing.
I'm a lazy bastard so I need all the help I can get, especially starting something.
I can still put enough of "myself" in there for it not to sound like it's churned out by robots. Especially when the myself bits includes the choice of sounds/rhythms to layer on top of whatever has been generated.
I love iOS for it's tools to produce these happy accidents. Hmmm, Borderlands could do with an update ...
If it sounds good to me it is good.
An interesting discussion,
I believe as soon as one is working with genres - it is a generative approach
IMO genre is a bigger creative constraint than generative software.
12 tone music is generative....
If one is truly making art, (which must include electronic tools as part of the pallet) then they should have escaped the constraints of generative music.
But ironically in a true state of making art, generative tools should not be ruled out.
I also believe we should be able to make great work using the inclusion of (intelligent) generative software
Well what about Motown then..?
Yes Borderlands could do with an update!
One of my all time fave apps
@u0421793 or @u26 for short, I got a bit side tracked talking about sample based loop music 'creation', but as far as an app like Fugue Machine, Xnthysizer, Borderlands and even some of the Apesoft ones go I feel completely different...to me their generative randomness is quite a positive thing.
To me it's like what Cage or Stockhausen were doing but in a more user friendly, faster, more melodic system. It can possibly be over used like everything else but using an app or VST that manipulates the notes, values & timbre of something one is putting into it can spark creativity and it allows 'Bob Ross-ian' happy accidents to lead us down paths we never woulf have traveled.
If sample based 'by numbers' apps provide that same sort of artistic emollient that ssparks original creative expression that's great. I take issue with calling the buffet like "a bit of this, a bit of that" sample pack/pre-made loops ONLY approach 'songwriting'.
But again, some of my friends get pissed because I don't consider DJ's musicians in the classical sense. F it, live and let live...I don't have to listen to it anyway.
I know how i like my coffee, but when my wife occasionally fixes my cup, it tastes better to me. She'll say the same about me and her coffee. That's exactly how I feel about generative music. Mine sounds very unsatisfactory to me, while i can enjoy anybody else's.
I haven't seen this one in a while...
Lol, yeah I've seen that, pretty comical slippery slope. It's like I said at the end of my last novella post, if whatever you do makes you create more or become a more fulfilled musician then do work!
It seems the thread was heading in this direction...
I use semi-generative techniques in almost all my music and consider it to be great for creating a combo feel. I don't really do much black box push a button stuff (but have done some). It's more rewarding and feels like composing when I pick a key, pick a pattern, scale and basically ask a voice to improvise. I can have it stick to a key, play a specific set of notes, randomly invert its chords or whatever I want. I also set up following voices that play in the same key (or a borrowed key off the 5th) to harmonize. Any and all of the parts have a degree of generative content but its the mixing of the whole that makes the piece. My favorite tool for this has been Noatikl (now Wotja), but many tools can be employed in this fashion. I would argue that this is still "mine" in that so much goes into the arrangement. Not that different than gathering a group of musicians, using fake-books and putting something together that is never quite the same each time you play it.
Generative music, if done right, is not simply a case of hitting a button and letting the piece materialise.
First create some unique presets with a synth or three or four, link up two or three or four generative apps together and have them set at different instances and see if you can create harmony amongst them.
Ask yourself why Brian eno is so revered, why his music sounds so polished and why he is now on one of the worlds most respected electronica labels? Do you think he has no control over the end result? Of course he does...
I feel generative music is allowing oneself to work more directly with whatever systems one uses to create it, not so strict manipulation but rather, co creation..
Hitting a randomiser button on an app to create a beat or a patch is another subject entirely, but to manifest a proper sounding generative piece definitely involves far more "control " than you give credit for here...
I enjoy generative systems because I enjoy doing sound design more than music composition.
If this thread had been started at Muff Wiggler instead of here, I think they would be mopping up the blood generated by it for months.
Good counter point.
Me too. I think.
I like using semi generative apps like FutureDrummer (midi out to my own chosen drum sounds) and your own amazing sequencer inside TroubleMaker - and tweaking patterns and settings to my own taste (that's the 'me') while letting the algorithms also do their own thing ... and then picking the best sounding bits to take further.
I also like designing my own sounds rather than using patches (more me).
I really don't see an issue with borrowing a drum pattern (and maybe adding to it / changing it) and placing within my own piece.
In a way I feel like the stuff I come up with "all on my own" whether by recording melodies live or programming them is generative because it's never 100% intentional. It's always me wondering what would happen if I messed around in such and such way. Then whatever comes out, I react to and adapt accordingly. It's like one half of my brain is the generative tool and the other is the decider of what to keep, discard, or change. So yeah, man, it's all generative.
I was about to post this. For me, I am into sound design and "creating spaces" more than writing songs. I do it for myself.
Thanks for the thought provoking thread.
Thank goodness for all you sound designers! You really make things easier on us preset-lovers when you're in a sharing mood. I really consider myself more composer than musician--and probably an even worse sound designer--but I do find generative apps a fantastic source of inspiration...just like the rest of life?
I wouldn't confuse Robot with AI. A robot can have AI, but it's more likely to be a disembodied program that makes decisions than anything mechanical.
Sorry if I niggle.
Worked for Kraftwerk
Well, it depends on how you define generative. If you mean completely generative like a blackbox that can each time surprise you with a fresh, nice sounding, never-ending evolving tune, then I'd like that very much. But the thing is we are still very, very far from creating such a system. I know a bit about the current state of AI. You can try to teach a computer to compose. Develop a neural net and make it learn composing new music by analysing the works (the more the better) of human musicians. But there's a huge problem: computers can't do what little kids without any knowledge of music can - they don't understand what sounds good and what sounds bad. So they still need input from us humans meaning someone has to listen to all the crap it generates and provide feedback on every piece it creates. And it's a huge task, almost impossible. Probably, we'll need to find another way to do it
If you mean somewhat generative like adding a bit of randomness here and there, then why not? Sometimes it can help to find new ideas but yes, it may take a lot of time to get any satisfactory results. Or you may not get any good results at all, you never know
I really like Brian Eno's approach that he uses in his evolving soundscape apps. Here's how he describes it:
Here's his very interesting interview on the topic: wired.co.uk/article/brian-eno-peter-chilvers-scape
I'm experimenting with something similar but for more rhythmic music. Simply put, imagine a weird combination of Launchpad and Sector
I think that's the thing. I'm not against this topic - I'm not anti-generative. For example, one of the apps I habitually aim for when the time for making my ipad emanate audio is Oscilab (as a kind of easier to use but inevitably more stunted walk down the same path as Different Drummer, which still after all this time confronts me with a barrage of a whole load of stuff I'm supposed to know about how it works, and punishes me with icons that don't do what I understand they should do by their shape). Either way, or even if I went into Xynthesizr or something, and got productive and got some output putting out, when I get to the stage where I'm listening to it, I eventually think to myself 'what a lot of crap' and indeed, there is a lot. There's a few good moments, but mostly not, mostly it is a sea of crap. The reason I find the whole involvement in generative sequencing is that my role isn't so much at the front end - the setting up the rules and machine, but actually more at the rear end, shovelling the crap out of the way.
As I say, I'm not anti- this, but I inevitably end the session thinking it'd be a whole lot easier if I just played it like that in the first place. But then, I'd have to get good at playing, and I'm not Bill Murray in Groundhog Day. I suppose that's what jazz is - dispensing with the whole shit shovelling of generative algorithms by playing it manually.