ALK by zen aud.io - will be coming to ios in 2018!

iansainsbury

Hi - I'm more of a lurker than an active participant here these days. I still make music on ios, but since it looks unlikely gadget will ever get midi out I've been hoping for a looping/timeline/midi/audio beast that would enable me to use my embarassingly large collection of music apps. Then I saw ALK's release mentioned (and it's on sale at the moment for Mac users (59 euro, 119 regular price). It looks pretty close to what I'm looking for on ipad so I sent the dev a msg on FaceBook asking if it could be ported to ios. Response below:

"Thank you for your message! We have it in our plans.
The app was developed in a way that it can be ported to iOS. Since we just started doing this, we have to follow a timeline but the IOS version is sure to come early 2018.

In the meantime, keep an eye on this page for further developments.
Thank you for your feedback. It really means a lot to us!

Have a pleasant day

All the best,
Francisco"

I asked if I could share the news on forums/FB groups. Answer below:

"Yes please! Any sharing/spreading is very much appreciated. Especially at this early stage. The software was designed with one eye on tables: so we don’t use double-clicking or right click very often. The pencil modes on the right are also informed by tablet ergonomics.

The track panels are brought up with one click (which would become tap when transferred to iOS) and they barely take any space. The fact that they hide via single click/tap is useful for smaller form factors such as those prevalent on iOS devices."

Interesting, no?
https://zenaud.io/

[Deleted User]

I don't like long waits or teases lol

I fondly remember the days when apps just LANDED and wowed us

iansainsbury

@Love3quency said:
I don't like long waits or teases lol

I fondly remember the days when apps just LANDED and wowed us

each to their own - I'm just interested in the way music software developers are heading, and how that might benefit musicians using iOS. I'm sure another app will give you your fix soon. As the dev himself points out, this is at an early stage. No teasing intended by the dev - it was me who spotted the launch and shared it here. I'm simply spreading the news of a piece of software that looks interesting to me, and might be interesting to others in this forum.

[Deleted User]

https://zenaud.io/static/images/feature_gifs/browser_style_interface.png
https://zenaud.io/static/images/feature_gifs/loop_sequence_view.png
https://zenaud.io/static/images/feature_gifs/midi_looping.png
https://zenaud.io/static/images/feature_gifs/symmetric_routing.png
https://zenaud.io/static/images/feature_gifs/plugin_support.png
https://zenaud.io/static/images/feature_gifs/magnetic_note_repeat.png

Many more at the link posted in the first comment.

TheVimFuego

Interesting, when I saw this announced my first thought was that it would be great on iOS.

Don't mind something to look forward to especially if it's been out for a while on another platform and all the bugs have been discovered and squashed, maybe a few neat features added too ...

[Deleted User]

Interesting concept that remembers me to stagecraft software. I'm not sure if "as is" will work on iPad or it will have easy setup and so but competition is everytime welcome.
I didn't saw nothing who makes me feel "whoa" or forget about blocs/launchpad + GTL possibilities I wonder.

"Because good music is horizontal"

Well... the best music listening often are but if I will do horizontal looping, music will be performed by Sade or Barry White

Aud_iOS

It's a really cool concept of signal flow. I just read their manual this morning - only aspect missing for me was support for Multi-out Vst's and MIDI-FX (both of which are "forthcoming"). Would of course be interested in iOS version!

Audiojunkie

This looks really cool!! This looks like it will be ACID for iOS. Do you know if the loops auto time stretch and transpose?

RUST( i )K

@Audiojunkie said:
This looks really cool!! This looks like it will be ACID for iOS. Do you know if the loops auto time stretch and transpose?

God I wish I was young again with only Acid some gear and dreams for the future............................

iansainsbury

@Audiojunkie said:
This looks really cool!! This looks like it will be ACID for iOS. Do you know if the loops auto time stretch and transpose?

No idea. I've just suggested to the dev that he might want to join the forum here, so fingers crossed.

Audiojunkie

@iansainsbury said:

@Audiojunkie said:
This looks really cool!! This looks like it will be ACID for iOS. Do you know if the loops auto time stretch and transpose?

No idea. I've just suggested to the dev that he might want to join the forum here, so fingers crossed.

Good move!

zenaudio

Hi everyone -- founder here. @iansainsbury, thanks for opening this discussion and inviting us!

[Sorry for the ridiculously large images below. I can't figure out how to make them smaller.]

@Ocsprey with respect to your comments:

• MIDI-FX: I think you mean pure MIDI VST effects like Cthulhu? That's already supported. My bad for not updating the manual! In fact one of my tasks over the next couple of weeks is updating that sucker; for most things it's good but for MIDI tracks and automation there have been changes that (sorry!) aren't documented yet. Image provided below from latest release.
• VST multi-out - you're right this is currently not supported. Our audio engine does support this functionality, but not the UI. So under the hood, each track's channel has a number so-called "terminals". Each terminal corresponds to a destination for any number of "cables", each of which is basically a connection (mono, stereo, or midi) with a gain knob. Currently we only display the "Main" terminal, but e.g. if a VST has a side-chain input or multiple outputs, these would appear as extra terminals, and each would have the same mixing functionality as what you currently see. A collection of terminals on one side (input or output) is called a "Terminal Bay". So currently the input/outputs boxes in the Track Panels are showing a Terminal -- they need to be altered to show a Terminal Bay. Anyway, long story short, it's been designed in from engine side and it's gonna happen.

@Audiojunkie - "Do you know if the loops auto time stretch and transpose?"

• Yes and yes. However, I must admit that the time stretching is currently not perfect, by which I mean that if you change the tempo of the piece before you hit play, no problem. But if you automate the BPM to change within an audio loop.... sorry, it's gonna get out of time. I'm aware of the problem and I'm going to work on fixing. Also, while transpose works obviously for any jump you want on MIDI side, on Audio it's gonna sound like Mickey Mouse if you do more than a perfect 5th jump.
• Another feature related to this is that, like in Ableton, you can select a sub-region of a (record) loop, and if you Shift+mouse drag that somewhere, you will loop just that sub-section. It actually loops the (live-played) subsection of the original loop. So you can chop up a loop in clever ways before you play and essentially get really well controlled glitch effects on that. Works on both Audio and MIDI, of course. On the audio side, there's still work to do: I want to make it more forgiving with respect to timing. So when it encounters a "cut-up" loop, it will do a scan in the original loop to look for a transient, that way you get the full force even if your timing isn't perfect. Basically I want to give e.g. guitarists the ability to do Skrillex-like shit *

PS. @Love3quency, I agree that companies that tease with announcements way in advance are irritating. We announced zenAud.io two weeks ago and shipped on time, so I think so far we've been "behaving" The statement about 2018 for iOS version was based on a question we were asked, and I'm confident that we can do it.

Audiojunkie

Will this support the iPhone? There are a LOT of iPhone-only users, as well as iPad users.

iansainsbury

Welcome, @zenaudio. Thanks for all the answers. I have to admit, I'm probably going to cave and buy this on OSX, so one final ios related question: will the two versions sync so that I can work on a project combining iOS synths and AUs on the Mac?

zenaudio

Yes, it will support both iPhone and iPad. By the way apart from handling the looping functions just like the desktop version, it will also serve as a controller for the desktop version. For example, one thing I noticed having a laptop at the centre of one of my bands was that the poor guy controlling the laptop was always fielding requests. Typically of the form: (guitarist) "make me louder!!". To I think it would be cool that if the guitarist wants to tweak his tone, they just pop out his phone and does the change themselves. Just thought I'd mention that.

zenaudio

@iansainsbury our thoughts are as one

iansainsbury

@zenaudio said:
@iansainsbury our thoughts are as one

I'm very happy to hear it...

Audiojunkie

@zenaudio said:
Yes, it will support both iPhone and iPad. By the way apart from handling the looping functions just like the desktop version, it will also serve as a controller for the desktop version. For example, one thing I noticed having a laptop at the centre of one of my bands was that the poor guy controlling the laptop was always fielding requests. Typically of the form: (guitarist) "make me louder!!". To I think it would be cool that if the guitarist wants to tweak his tone, they just pop out his phone and does the change themselves. Just thought I'd mention that.

Excellent!! My purchase is as good as done, as soon as it's released!!

Aud_iOS

@Audiojunkie said:

@zenaudio said:
Yes, it will support both iPhone and iPad. By the way apart from handling the looping functions just like the desktop version, it will also serve as a controller for the desktop version. For example, one thing I noticed having a laptop at the centre of one of my bands was that the poor guy controlling the laptop was always fielding requests. Typically of the form: (guitarist) "make me louder!!". To I think it would be cool that if the guitarist wants to tweak his tone, they just pop out his phone and does the change themselves. Just thought I'd mention that.

Excellent!! My purchase is as good as done, as soon as it's released!!

Same here. I'm really wanting to pick up the desktop version, which is on intro-sale until June 22nd (if memory serves). I'm only hesitating because it would necessitate a big commitment to integrate. But it looks damn fun, I'm really bummed I missed the beta!

Aud_iOS

@zenaudio said:
Hi everyone -- founder here. @iansainsbury, thanks for opening this discussion and inviting us!

[Sorry for the ridiculously large images below. I can't figure out how to make them smaller.]

@Ocsprey with respect to your comments:

• MIDI-FX: I think you mean pure MIDI VST effects like Cthulhu? That's already supported. My bad for not updating the manual! In fact one of my tasks over the next couple of weeks is updating that sucker; for most things it's good but for MIDI tracks and automation there have been changes that (sorry!) aren't documented yet. Image provided below from latest release.

@zenaudio Cool - glad to know. Same for the Multi-Vst outs! Can you route audio out of a track pre/post Mixer or at otherwise points along the audio chain, so it can be recorded or processed separately on other tracks?

You mentioned above being able to select sub regions of loop and copy them to a new area. Can drawn Automation envelopes or modulations be separately dragged and dropped onto new/existing loop regions?

Processaurus

@zenaudio I saw an article on the pc/mac release and am excited to hear of your interest in bringing it to ios! I have been looking high and low for an ideal "midi looper", and it is so cool to see one that works alongside audio looping. The other thing that caught my eye was that it has a linear timeline for arranging your loops. That is really excellent, as "song mode" is often a dusty, neglected corner in sequencing software.

Much of solo artist looper based music I see performed live has one general kind of song structure- start with something minimal and cool, and then just keep piling stuff on top, til it's some behemoth thing, solo over the top, and add some effects. It was wizardry for the first few years, but as it has gotten commonplace, the wonder has faded. This seems like a limitation of the tools that were available; unless you have a way of orchestrating changes quickly, you're stuck with the sole dynamic of adding and adding to your arrangement. With the multi-track loopers, which are an excellent evolution, you can play with muting different parts, and mixing, very cool, but then you're stuck babysitting the thing, when you could be busy with a voodoo ritual with candelabra and taco sauce.

The timeline is a great incorporation, because it like a power tool, for song mode.

[Deleted User]

@Processaurus said:
@zenaudio I saw an article on the pc/mac release and am excited to hear of your interest in bringing it to ios! I have been looking high and low for an ideal "midi looper", and it is so cool to see one that works alongside audio looping. The other thing that caught my eye was that it has a linear timeline for arranging your loops. That is really excellent, as "song mode" is often a dusty, neglected corner in sequencing software.

Much of solo artist looper based music I see performed live has one general kind of song structure- start with something minimal and cool, and then just keep piling stuff on top, til it's some behemoth thing, solo over the top, and add some effects. It was wizardry for the first few years, but as it has gotten commonplace, the wonder has faded. This seems like a limitation of the tools that were available; unless you have a way of orchestrating changes quickly, you're stuck with the sole dynamic of adding and adding to your arrangement. With the multi-track loopers, which are an excellent evolution, you can play with muting different parts, and mixing, very cool, but then you're stuck babysitting the thing, when you could be busy with a voodoo ritual with candelabra and taco sauce.

The timeline is a great incorporation, because it like a power tool, for song mode.

Check GTL too, mate.

zenaudio

@Ocsprey - "Can drawn Automation envelopes or modulations be separately dragged and dropped onto new/existing loop regions?"

Oh sure, they're just like normal loops -- although in ALK they're called regions, to distinguish them from audio/MIDI material that loops i.e. repeats. So you can copy, cut, paste, resize, just like normal loops. Remember, in ALK the automation curve you draw is not tied to any audio or MIDI loop. Instead, it lives inside its own region. A region looks just like a loop, but its content is a curve. It can be moved anywhere, it can be resized -- it is not in any way tied to the loop or track it is set to modulate. You can copy paste it, switch to the routing editor (available again directly on the region UI), and choose a new destination for the curve copy. Changing what an automation region -- region, not track -- modulates is super easy: you click a button to switch the region from curve drawing to routing mode, and then select a destination track/plugin/param from the drop-down menu.

Just to hammer home the difference in approach to automation, let me point out that in ALK it's possible -- even typical -- to have a single automation track automating different tracks' parameters, or different plugins, or different parameters (cutoff, resonance) on a single plugin instance. One illustrative example would be to provide a single "semantic" curve or rotary encoder for your "performing" volume. Now, usually if you want to keep things interesting you might have several sounds -- e.g. Verse Guitar sound and Chorus Guitar sound. The obvious way to do this is to put them on separate tracks. Now granted, you could just route them both into another audio track acting as a group track, but let's say you don't want to do that (say, because they're not both guitars, but one is a guitar and the other a synth). You then just regions corresponding section where one sound prevails, on a single automation track. Then you route each region to the appropriate track.

Aud_iOS

@zenaudio said:
@Ocsprey - "Can drawn Automation envelopes or modulations be separately dragged and dropped onto new/existing loop regions?"

Oh sure, they're just like normal loops -- although in ALK they're called regions, to distinguish them from audio/MIDI material that loops i.e. repeats. So you can copy, cut, paste, resize, just like normal loops. Remember, in ALK the automation curve you draw is not tied to any audio or MIDI loop. Instead, it lives inside its own region. A region looks just like a loop, but its content is a curve. It can be moved anywhere, it can be resized -- it is not in any way tied to the loop or track it is set to modulate. You can copy paste it, switch to the routing editor (available again directly on the region UI), and choose a new destination for the curve copy. Changing what an automation region -- region, not track -- modulates is super easy: you click a button to switch the region from curve drawing to routing mode, and then select a destination track/plugin/param from the drop-down menu.

Just to hammer home the difference in approach to automation, let me point out that in ALK it's possible -- even typical -- to have a single automation track automating different tracks' parameters, or different plugins, or different parameters (cutoff, resonance) on a single plugin instance. One illustrative example would be to provide a single "semantic" curve or rotary encoder for your "performing" volume. Now, usually if you want to keep things interesting you might have several sounds -- e.g. Verse Guitar sound and Chorus Guitar sound. The obvious way to do this is to put them on separate tracks. Now granted, you could just route them both into another audio track acting as a group track, but let's say you don't want to do that (say, because they're not both guitars, but one is a guitar and the other a synth). You then just regions corresponding section where one sound prevails, on a single automation track. Then you route each region to the appropriate track.

Wow, that's terrific. Modular DAW sorta concept, right up my alley! Thx for the great feedback here too.

zenaudio

@Ocsprey - "Can drawn Automation envelopes or modulations be separately dragged and dropped onto new/existing loop regions?"

Yes, absolutely. Automation curves/envelopes/modulations live within their own region. They can be dragged, copied, cut, resized, and moved anywhere you want. They are not tied to any loop on the track they modulate. Scripted automation regions (i.e. automation which isn't performed with a controller, i.e. it is drawn or set), have two modes: routing mode and curve drawing mode.

In attached image, the first and last loop are in routing mode. The black box with text in shows destination, clicking brings up the menu you see. As you can see, they are routed to different plugins on different tracks. The middle automation region is in curve drawing mode. To flick between the two modes, you click the left-most small button within each region.

zenaudio

Argh, sorry now it appears I've repeated myself -- I thought I lost that post. Oh well

zenaudio

@Processaurus - thanks, I'm glad you see the real point of the software!

@Dubbylabby - thanks for the tip on GTL. It looks like an amazing program, and I'm sure for many uses it is ideal. By the way I also read your posts on the zenaud.io blog. While I appreciate what you're saying, I think the beauty of music is that there's lots of different ways of doing things. I wrote ALK because, as a songwriter, I didn't find any tool which fit my way of performing (or writing for that matter, but that's a bridge to cross on another day). I fully accept that my way of writing isn't the only, best, etc. way of doing things. If GTL works for you, use it!

And I really do mean it when I say it's interesting. I like the idea of having "basic" loops that don't change, and "section" loops on top which do change. Very nice.

zenaudio

One last thing, and I want to mention this to avoid any doubt. I will update the website to make this clear tonight also. It is this:

ALK does not currently have a MIDI note editor. You can draw loops etc., but you can't draw individual notes. Instead, you must either play them in yourself, or you can use the import audio/midi facility to import standard midi files from other DAWs. We're sorry about this limitation and we're going to work on providing a note editor -- I will announce here what my timeline for that is if people are interested.

[Deleted User]

@zenaudio said:
@Processaurus - thanks, I'm glad you see the real point of the software!

@Dubbylabby - thanks for the tip on GTL. It looks like an amazing program, and I'm sure for many uses it is ideal. By the way I also read your posts on the zenaud.io blog. While I appreciate what you're saying, I think the beauty of music is that there's lots of different ways of doing things. I wrote ALK because, as a songwriter, I didn't find any tool which fit my way of performing (or writing for that matter, but that's a bridge to cross on another day). I fully accept that my way of writing isn't the only, best, etc. way of doing things. If GTL works for you, use it!

And I really do mean it when I say it's interesting. I like the idea of having "basic" loops that don't change, and "section" loops on top which do change. Very nice.

Don't let feel my "arguing" as rant... I love to defend my pov until I find where I made mistakes...

I found lots of people searching for perfection or "missing" pieces but then most of them haven't tried GTL or Stagecraft software which has lots of these missed features... U know?
New players are welcome and if I can contribute in any way just tell me how

Edit: Also I notice there are some users finding your workflow useful so maybe there are more than I figured which is amazing since your proposal is more musical than usual looping tools.

Cheers!

Aud_iOS

Hi everyone - I decided to pick ALK up. So for those interested:

1. There's been like 9 updates in as many days, a nice mix of features and fixes dropped.
2. Ableton Link has already been implemented.
3. Dev seems on it, engaging, and there's a nice Forum, which is filled with the nice early-adopter types.

There's a free demo here: https://zenaud.io/

I'm keen to see ALK on iOS!

[Deleted User]

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