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New Track - No Loss (all iOS)
Stuff's starting to get serious here, 'round the 'stresshold - got us an official soundcloud account and everything'! First push towards a summer-long effort to get social media/web channels ready to go, something resembling a press kit and what not before the album finally debuts. I've been working on this for the better part of three years. All iOS, all over the genre map.
Here's a mix of the title track:
Comments
Wow brother. Like it very much.
Love the lyric, I wrote a song years ago called "Hot People" (the Tascam 488mkII 8 track demo is on my SoundCloud) dealing with similar issues regarding our precarious planet's health.
Look forward to your record coming out. We have similar working methods if it's been 3 years in the making, lol.
I prefer to look at it as perfectionism & quality over quantity and not laziness & indecision, lol.
Be cool...
Really like this. Beautiful piano start and nicely understated guitar work. Intriguing lyric, kind of puts me in mind of a modern take on In the Year 2525 by Zager & Evans. Except they had a more positive ending,
@eustressor Great song and production job!
Everything clear and well mixed. Hard to pin down specific influences. Makes me think American slacker rock - Weezer, Eels, Flaming Lips.
Nice build at the end! Well done
Great song and performance @eustressor. The production covers a gamut of sounds from the 60s to today. I heard things that reminded me of psychedelic Beatles, 80s metal, and editing sounds of today. Brilliant lyrical satire.
This is fab
sorry to disagree with everything but the 'great song' statement...
The mix is at about 30 to 50% of it's potential, depending on how you weigh small improvements that set apart a top production.
It doesn't help the poster to simply applaud because it's IOS only and I write this with all respect due to the work.
I appeciate the track for 2 reasons: feedback about the state of the project to improve it, but also to improve IOS tools on real work examples.
According to my own experience (and the majority of posted sounds), the ones finally processed on a desktop DAW always scored significantly higher.
In fact the only pure IOS examples where by @mrufino1 band Shutterwax, at least I understood that he'd done the full mix in Auria Pro - which I'd never guessed by ear.
It's not a question of sound quality alone, as we all know that apps CAN do it.
Seems more in the way of distributing things during the final stage, which is NOT a question of loudness either. Those tools are also there.
I can collect stuff on IOS with ease and later arrange/mix it on desktop in no time at all.
So I still split between those 2 parts, which I'd rather avoid as a 100% IOS recorder.
(Audiobus, AudioShare and AUM have improved workflow a lot, or rather allowed it at all)
@Telefunky Surely an opinion is subjective? To my ears, this song had a good sound and feel to it. How can you possibly know what the person producing is aiming for sound wise?
Wouldn't it be better if you had given your own opinion on why various parts could be improved and why?
Or posted something to show us all how it's done.
Experience - it's not a secret how a specific genre is supposed to sound to be appreciated by it's audience.
Metal heads prefer another tone than Doomers, Country doesn't work with what's applied to Fusion Jazz, Rock is different from R'n'B, etc.
This track has been associated with psychedelic 60/70s stuff - it fails because it's DAW separated and not as glued as a traditional mix would be.
That's not about (any personal) opinion, but simple craftmenship of audio engineering.
Of course I'll give a detailed description of my impressions if @eustressor is interested.
It was left out deliberately as people often take such comments as a personal offence.
As mentioned my intention is to improve things, not diss for dissing's sake.
Brilliant. So how about a link to something you've done.
Thank you everyone for the kind and thoughtful comments!
I'm currently working IRL, so let me just say that I think @Telefunky makes some good points - after all, it says "(Rough Mix)" right in the title. I also see some of myself in the comments from @DefRobot and @Zen210507 regarding the inherent subjectivity of critique. It is an art - I have mostly recused myself from the excellent SOTMC because I personally don't feel comfortable giving criticism on an artistic presentation, other than to speak to the positives I find in it. Because I cannot, without a lot of back and forth, resolve how much of a production's sound/structure/delivery was an artistic choice, oversight, or outright mistake. Remember, Dark Side of The Moon had a number of "happy accidents" according to the band, so not all "mistakes" are inherently fatal.
There's room for both points of view, and I am definitely open to critiques. Please, everyone just continue trying to keep comments nice. I'll try to address your comments individually as soon as I can steal the time
Thanks again for all the feedback - very, very much appreciated!!
I 'love' this defensive comeback to a person's obviously experienced point of view. I wouldn't post my songs on here if I didn't want criticism, which is far more useful than praise.
While I appreciate @Telefunky being a constructive critic (I believe that's the intention), I disagree with some of the points made.
Someone can make a record of professional quality on iOS with the appropriate equipment & talent. I worked on DAW's on desktop for years and aside from the size difference and lack of keyboard & mouse there's NO difference.
If you check the Show Your Studio thread many iOS Musician/Producers, including myself, have semi-permanent or permanent setups utilizing iPads in tandem with monitors, outboard gear, mics, etc. The only difference between a desktop studio is the format (tablet vs. PC). Air 2's & Pro's are as powerful as machines used just 5 years ago to run ProTools setups.
The apps within the iOS format vary in quality, but so do VST & programs on PC/Mac. An iPad with Auria Pro and the Fab Filter plugins is just as potent as a desktop DAW in my view. Cubasis may not have the power of the FF plugs but it too is extremely capable.
I also think someone can use an influence without framing it in it's "appropriate" genre stereotype. If a '60's vibe guitar or organ is put on a track and it works arrangement wise & in the spectrum so be it. The entire track then doesn't need to be phased and slathered with tape delay or mixed in near mono like a lot of tracks were back then. Just my opinion.
>
What better example could there be, than a sample of what Mr Telefunky is talking about?
@eustressor I would say you should do some more work on the vocals, particularly the harmony parts because there are definite pitch problems there. Singing harmonies is really hard and I've had my own long and hard slog with improving vocals so I say this with sympathy based on my own experience
In the sort-term I would recommend getting some version of Melodyne (the cheapest is essentials at $99) and using it to fix the pitching on your vocals. For a longer-term solution, you can read the spoiler (or avoid if it's not wanted).
If you really want to learn to sing in tune I would recommend practicing as often as you can with some sort of condenser microphone and a good monitoring setup. I've tried many different ways to practice, including just sitting in a room with a guitar and singing a bunch of songs, but practicing with proper monitoring is the best way I've found, because it lets you really hear yourself well, and this makes a huge difference and will allow you to progress faster. Even then progress is likely to be slow and incremental, in my case I've been doing it for 3.5 years and I'm still far from perfect (but nonetheless a little bit better all the time, but I practice almost every day).
I currently use a Lightning mic into my phone (Shure MV51) with headphones plugged into the mic, with a mix of direct monitoring and some wet signal from AUM with reverb on (I find the reverb tail really helps my pitch). This works well for me but of course YMMV, the key thing is to find a setup where you can really hear your voice well while you sing and to practice often so that you get more sensitive to pitch over time. And of course record yourself and listen back to your practice the next day. I find listening first thing in the morning when I'm feeling a little grumpy and unforgiving is the best, as I'm more self-critical then
Anyway this advice is genuinely meant as constructive, so please take it that way. What I've found is that everything always takes more time than we would like it to, and singing is definitely one of those skills that takes time to develop.
no need to disagree - that's basically what I wrote about sound quality and the tools available.
Yet it still puzzles me that I get arrangement and the final stage much easier on desktop - and obviously a lot of folks have similiar results.
(but I'll post in a dedicated thread to not distract from the topic here)
to illustrate personal opinion and taste - and that it's in fact not about amount/price of gear
music starts at 4.30, high end gear, and they focus on each sound in great detail.
Many people certainly like exactly that result (and the mix is technically perfect), but for my personal taste (!) it simply kills the song.
Just the opposite is this bluegrass cover of Rocket Man
A humble $500 Avatone mic on main vocals (ok, there seems to be an U87 on bass)
And a rather simple mix, tight and catchy, solos nicely embedded - that's my cup of tea.
That I prefer one over the other is entirely subjective.
Thanks for the compliment. I did mix that whole album in auria and 2 songs on our new one in the same way. These days I'm mostly using harrison mixbus on my Mac because I'm mixing live jazz recordings and need to skip around. Auria's automation is a pain for this because there is no touch mode.
I'm not sure where my album fit into the discussion, but it's definitely not the tools that are any barrier, I do know that.
The person that mixed the rest of our new album did it in digital performer and I think he did an amazing job.
it's of course not about comparing them, but the one you mentioned has a lot of punch and keeps a well-defined, yet open soundstage, in particular during verses.
Refrains are a more dense picture, which I consider a deliberate (artistic) decision, as it's handled similiar on several tracks.
(I'd prefer it somewhat wider, but that's a matter of taste)
This mix is a great proof of what can be achieved on IOS alone, yet still an exception.
For reference:
The most obvious flaw on 'No Loss' is the bass: too much volume, lacks definition.
(which possibly led to increase it in the mix)
Simple basses like Fender Precision/Jazz (or respective clones) avoid this phenomenon.
As a consequence of the bass level, the mix overshoots at compression/makeup gain, in particular on drum hits.
This could be improved by optimizing track levels before applying loudness to the mix.
(to be continued...)
Thank you - I'm really glad you liked it
I hope we don't work the same way ... I wrote this in the middle of a three year period of depression and very little employment. So since I felt sheer existence for me was shit, hell with it, I'm going to write a song where I get to off the entire planet. No loss.
It turned out surprisingly well, I thought, and that may have been the moment I began the long uphill climb out of my depression. I've used the excuse, "I'm going to really take my time and try to develop my mixing chops" to take so long on this album - and that is also the reason I sidelined my old Sci-Fi concept album for a bit. I felt a bit like Tolkien trying to write his "Lord of the Rings" without having written his "Hobbit" first.
Whenever I catch myself on the horns of perfectionism to the point of inaction, for some reason, I always think of Orson Welles. He spent forever editing "Chimes at Midnight," and spent so long trying to make the perfect Don Quixote movie, it never got made. I just got the impression that the older, spurned and bitter Welles hid his pain behind a constant need to edit, noodle, revise and reshoot, instead of just releasing something that was most of the way there. It's easy to spend way too long in that headspace. If Picasso had worked the same way, we would have maybe three Picasso paintings
So, in the name of learning a new craft, I am hiding a bit of my own perfecrtionism. But like I said, I'm coming out of that period of depression. Got a new job, and basically most of the demons that were plaguing me have been dealt with.
Very pleased to hear you enjoyed it, and thank you for taking the time to comment!
Thank you for listening and taking time to comment - yeah, there was no gleam of hope in this one. Just straight up death to all. I'm also a big fan of Don McKellar's Canadian indie film "Last Night."
Glad you liked this song, it's been "my precious" for over a year now
Thank you for your kind words. I'm also glad to hear you enjoyed the mix - outside of some post session track balancing, this is largely untouched (hence the "rough mix") outside the Pro-L in Auria. It makes me hopeful that the final mix will really shine!
That's the third time my music has been compared to The Flaming Lips. They must have squashed flowers or punched old women in a past life. I should look them up
Thank you, Artie - we can't get away with just phoning it in after you set the bar so high with your excellent recent iOS album release - which I hope is performing well for you
Glad you caught the Beatles vibe. - for me it was the drums. That big, massive high hat and wet snare sounds from their psychedelic period. That's what I was aiming for with the drum part - so many artists have provided so much great music, I do like to pay an homage here and there. As for the lyrics, they were written in about twenty minutes. Originally "No horsemen, just a rock/Come to clean our clock" was a placeholder until I could think of proper lyrics, but it grew on me
Happy to hear you liked it, thanks for listening and commenting!
Glad to hear you liked it, Doug - a few touches were for my friends across the pond. "Ours is no disgrace" and "the Universe won't give a toss" in particular. I've always been fond of British humour and turns of phrase, as well as a lot of your exported rock and roll music
@eustressor I, like most people I'd wager, have periods of depression that are absolutely no fun at all. The silver lining is the lessons learned & strength developed from kicking out of a stretch of depression.
The older I get the shorter the stretches are, sometimes even down to just a day or two every once in awhile. Meditation, humor & music are huge helps.
Music has been my obsessive singular focus for as far back as my memory allows. Nothing can instantly change my emotional state as fast as music; no drug, no drink & no other art form.
That full body flush with goosebumps & hairs on end, that complete feeling of being ALIVE only hits me from music. It's brought me out of funks and no doubt kept me alive.
That's a fun track, made me smile. One thing to consider with the constructive criticism is that , if you look at your vinyl, cd or whatever, it'll usually have produced by.., mixed by.., master by.. somewhere. Up to each person how much time and money they want to invest in their music.
Thanks for the listen and glad you liked it - that's our feel good song
You raise an excellent point about production credits. If I could afford it, I would hire a professsional to master - even the most awesome "Hurricane" by Shutterwax mentioned above was mastered elsewhere (@Tarekith, perhaps?). It's undoubtedly wise policy to leave the spit and polish chores to an impartial, trained professional.
But I don't have the extra cash right now, so I'm going to have to stretch the Frank Zappa DIY approach as far as I can, for now. This is just an initial volume balance mix, run through a static limiter. The only real production move I made was copying and pasting my best (a relative term here) round of "ooohs" for each instance.
So, plenty of room for improvement.
Yeah, I recently got some VERY helpful guidance in meditation. Combined with trying to apply a bit more of Buddhism's "live in the moment" focus when I can, I've made a lot of progress. Still, it was a wretched three years - unemployed, unfocused, feeling like a ghost in my own house.
It's interesting, and similar to your comments about how music singularly makes you feel truly alive, to note, as I began to produce music that was about my feelings at that time, going to that dark place and looking for relevant, human themes, that I started to turn things around after recording this song. It would still be a year and a half before I found steady work, but I began to regain my mojo. All this after taking a 12 year break from writing and playing music. Actually just submitted an article about that link to an indie music magazine earlier this week. Perhaps denying my inner composer for so long contributed to my breakdown ...
I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts about music and methods to keep the ol' brainpan smiley. Thanks!
afaik all was done by @mrufino1 in Auria which comes with a full toolchest.
If I understood him mcorrectly their next album has been mixed/mastered elsewhere.
For me this track is a milestone, as I know a lot of desktop mixes that can't compete with it.
So you're saying you agree with @DefRobot that it's a great song? Thank you! I appreciate you saying so
No argument here. I put "Rough Mix" on the title because it's literally about a half-hour of balancing faders, one production edit, and slapping a static limiter on it. I had just finished recording my last vocal take about an hour before I spit out this rough mix. So it's quite encouraging to hear this mix may be anywhere from 30% (your low) to, say, 75-80% (roughly, based on @DefRobot's complimentary views on the mix/production) of the way there. Very encouraging!
There are a few different schools of thought when it comes to critiquing art, and I believe there is value in each. I outlined my own sense on critiques above, but I am completely open, and would welcome you taking the time, to perhaps toss out your top 5 bullet points, with a bit of commentary supporting each, if you like. I have another friend who liked the song and felt there were a "a few minor mixing and mastering issues," so I'd be curious to compare your thoughts with his.
I've heard work by @supanorton and Daniel Deardorff, and a band called Emily Needs, that sounded every ounce like a commercial release. Indie, perhaps, but genuinely pro sounding. But that's me. Some people think the CGI in Captain America: Civil War sucked. I think it was well done.
Just so you know, I slept through the entire desktop DAW revolution. I was out of music and into a professional career and family. When I decided to return to writing/recording music in 2014, the whole reason I went with iOS as a recording platform was to save money. As you note, there are plenty of apps capable of sound quality. Most apps/plugs/DAWs on iOS are available for pennies on the dollar compared to desktop. I've invested a very large jar of pennies into my iPad-centric recording platform, so here I will remain until I feel satisfied I've gotten my money's worth and feel a compulsion to move on.
But I know of a lot of folks who were wide awake during the desktop DAW revolution, and therefore have valuable investments in both desktop and iOS and like to use them together. Which I think is great
Horses, courses and such 
Overall, thanks for taking time to both listen and share your initial thoughts on my track. I appreciate any and all feedback, and not everybody takes the time to offer it.
I thought I read he sent it out for mastering, but I've been embarrassingly wrong about Shutterfacts in the past. I'm sure @mrufino1 will speak sooner or later as to which.
Also a big fan of the title track from the same album, "Disappointment."
https://shutterwax.bandcamp.com/track/disappointment-2
Sounds like you had fun making that track @eustressor I enjoyed listening!
)
The only comment I would make (and I know this is a rough mix) is about the harmony guitars in some places sounds off to me but the important thing is if you enjoyed it and are happy.
By all means implement constructive suggestions if you think it would make it sound better but the important thing is that you are happy with the final product (unless you are in it for the money - in which case you probably need professional mixing and mastering services
Mixing (and mastering) is very subjective... there is "mainstream" mixing (and mastering), but there is also room for experimentation. What diferentiates a good work from a bad work in these fields is if you got where you want or not. Listen to Radiohead's Paranoid Android and the ludicrously loud guitar solo that yet is perfectly appropriate - some could say it is wrong, it was a production mistake, but I bet it was intentional and the result was exactly what was intended - that is, it was a good work. I could point to a lot more examples of production "mistakes" that weren't mistakes, but I'm feeling a bit lazy, so these are my two cents.
Great song, @eustressor! Looking forward to listen the final result.