What's the best piano roll on an iOS app?

Skyscrapersax

@Alex fox said:
I'm currently implementing some changes to KRFTs piano roll (matrix) and wondered - what are the best editors on iOS?

The touch screen has an advantage of being quicker than a mouse, however your fingers don't have the same accuracy as a mouse which means everything has to be bigger. There's also no right click, or alt-click which can be really useful for accessing features quickly or an alternate function.

Look forward to your replies!
Alex

Alex, does your KRFT app's piano roll feature scrubbing with sound? Moving the vertical line left and right and having the notes make sound? Or using arrows on a keyboard for this? Abelton does this on my laptop. So far, I can't find an iPad piano roll that does. Thanks...

wim

@Skyscrapersax said:

@syrupcore said:

@Skyscrapersax said:

@peanut_gallery said:
NS2 piano roll is by far my favorite.

For my very limited purpose, Garage Band would work fine (and I really like the big interface). I'm 61.5 with eyeballs to match. Lots of these apps are dark city and I can't see them very well. But Garage Band does not sound the sound when moving the vertical line back and forth over the notes, which is the feature I need. Does NS2 (nanostudio 2?) do this? BTW, I'd prefer JUST a piano roll, without all the other crap. This is for a very specific purpose.

Ah, you mean something like timeline scrubbing. I'm not sure of any apps that do that. I just hit stop and start a lot.

Yeah, that's one way to put it. Abelton does this on my laptop. I want to do it on iPad. I need to go back and forth at will, so start and stop will not work. Garage Band is actually perfect, except there is no sound when physically moving the vertical line to the left and right. I wonder if there is a workaround that will make it do this?

Not what you're asking for, but closer ...

With Xequence 2 you can leave play running, then tap in the piano roll where you want playback to be and it jumps there. You can also select some notes and then set the loop to those notes with just two taps.

Skyscrapersax

@wim said:

@Skyscrapersax said:

@syrupcore said:

@Skyscrapersax said:

@peanut_gallery said:
NS2 piano roll is by far my favorite.

For my very limited purpose, Garage Band would work fine (and I really like the big interface). I'm 61.5 with eyeballs to match. Lots of these apps are dark city and I can't see them very well. But Garage Band does not sound the sound when moving the vertical line back and forth over the notes, which is the feature I need. Does NS2 (nanostudio 2?) do this? BTW, I'd prefer JUST a piano roll, without all the other crap. This is for a very specific purpose.

Ah, you mean something like timeline scrubbing. I'm not sure of any apps that do that. I just hit stop and start a lot.

Yeah, that's one way to put it. Abelton does this on my laptop. I want to do it on iPad. I need to go back and forth at will, so start and stop will not work. Garage Band is actually perfect, except there is no sound when physically moving the vertical line to the left and right. I wonder if there is a workaround that will make it do this?

Not what you're asking for, but closer ...

With Xequence 2 you can leave play running, then tap in the piano roll where you want playback to be and it jumps there. You can also select some notes and then set the loop to those notes with just two taps.

Thank you, that rules out Xequence 2!

wim

Eh. Sorry about that. Didn't read the previous posts.

Skyscrapersax

@wim said:
Eh. Sorry about that. Didn't read the previous posts.

That's cool. I have an oddball request!

Littlewoodg

@Skyscrapersax said:

@wim said:
Eh. Sorry about that. Didn't read the previous posts.

That's cool. I have an oddball request!

MultiTrackStudio does the “scrub” on both midi and audio tracks...
Outstanding midi and audio editors.

Skyscrapersax

@Littlewoodg said:

@Skyscrapersax said:

@wim said:
Eh. Sorry about that. Didn't read the previous posts.

That's cool. I have an oddball request!

MultiTrackStudio does the “scrub” on both midi and audio tracks...
Outstanding midi and audio editors.

I've not heard of this one, thanks! I'd prefer a standalone, minimalist piano roll, since this is for a limited application, but I really don't have an iPad DAW that I like (I have Cubasis, but I hate the interface).

I read the review, and a reviewer also notes the scrubbing feature. Is it accomplished by moving the vertical line, or with a dedicated scrub wheel as in Pro Tools?

Before I spend the $30, I'd like to make SURE: can I really go backwards and forwards, over the notes, and hear the pitches? It sounds like so.... Looking at the interface examples on the App Store, I don't see a scrub wheel.

Although not critical, is it possible to make the interface something OTHER that the ubiquitous grey-dark grey? I am 61.5 years old with eyes to match, and these dark interfaces are difficult for me to see. Garage Band has a bright and cherry interface in a much lighter color.

I see that it has a notation feature. Very cool! I have Notion, but it is not integrated on iPad, since it's "twin" is Presonus, Studio One, which doesn't have an iPad implementation.

I generally use Sibelius for notation, and also Overture 5 (which, IMHO, is the best DAW-Notation combo, as it is integrated - it's all in one app. Is this also true for Multitrack Studio? That would be fantastic!

BTW, I'm a Jazz saxophonist and pianist. I've been playing music since the month before Woodstock (July, 1969).

Thanks.....

Littlewoodg

@Skyscrapersax said:

@Littlewoodg said:

@Skyscrapersax said:

@wim said:
Eh. Sorry about that. Didn't read the previous posts.

That's cool. I have an oddball request!

MultiTrackStudio does the “scrub” on both midi and audio tracks...
Outstanding midi and audio editors.

I've not heard of this one, thanks! I'd prefer a standalone, minimalist piano roll, since this is for a limited application, but I really don't have an iPad DAW that I like (I have Cubasis, but I hate the interface).

I read the review, and a reviewer also notes the scrubbing feature. Is it accomplished by moving the vertical line, or with a dedicated scrub wheel as in Pro Tools?

Before I spend the $30, I'd like to make SURE: can I really go backwards and forwards, over the notes, and hear the pitches? It sounds like so.... Looking at the interface examples on the App Store, I don't see a scrub wheel.

Although not critical, is it possible to make the interface something OTHER that the ubiquitous grey-dark grey? I am 61.5 years old with eyes to match, and these dark interfaces are difficult for me to see. Garage Band has a bright and cherry interface in a much lighter color.

I see that it has a notation feature. Very cool! I have Notion, but it is not integrated on iPad, since it's "twin" is Presonus, Studio One, which doesn't have an iPad implementation.

I generally use Sibelius for notation, and also Overture 5 (which, IMHO, is the best DAW-Notation combo, as it is integrated - it's all in one app. Is this also true for Multitrack Studio? That would be fantastic!

BTW, I'm a Jazz saxophonist and pianist. I've been playing music since the month before Woodstock (July, 1969).

Thanks.....

The scrubbing (for audio tracks, midi, and score editing) has two handles, one in side the editors and one along the top that’s for more “macro” moves

It’s true that the GUI is a bit brutalist, but I’ve come to love it as all processing power goes towards the music, rather than the rendering of visuals. The PC and Mac versions have a few more (simple) GUI options, ie silver and lighter ones. And shipping projects between iPad and desk/laptop is very smooth.
Me, 59.5 years, with just enough piano and sax to get into trouble in the best way. Didn’t start piano lessons til the year after Woodstock.

You mentioned Jazz, I didn’t know there was any other kind of music...

Skyscrapersax

@Littlewoodg said:

@Skyscrapersax said:

@Littlewoodg said:

@Skyscrapersax said:

@wim said:
Eh. Sorry about that. Didn't read the previous posts.

That's cool. I have an oddball request!

MultiTrackStudio does the “scrub” on both midi and audio tracks...
Outstanding midi and audio editors.

I've not heard of this one, thanks! I'd prefer a standalone, minimalist piano roll, since this is for a limited application, but I really don't have an iPad DAW that I like (I have Cubasis, but I hate the interface).

I read the review, and a reviewer also notes the scrubbing feature. Is it accomplished by moving the vertical line, or with a dedicated scrub wheel as in Pro Tools?

Before I spend the $30, I'd like to make SURE: can I really go backwards and forwards, over the notes, and hear the pitches? It sounds like so.... Looking at the interface examples on the App Store, I don't see a scrub wheel.

Although not critical, is it possible to make the interface something OTHER that the ubiquitous grey-dark grey? I am 61.5 years old with eyes to match, and these dark interfaces are difficult for me to see. Garage Band has a bright and cherry interface in a much lighter color.

I see that it has a notation feature. Very cool! I have Notion, but it is not integrated on iPad, since it's "twin" is Presonus, Studio One, which doesn't have an iPad implementation.

I generally use Sibelius for notation, and also Overture 5 (which, IMHO, is the best DAW-Notation combo, as it is integrated - it's all in one app. Is this also true for Multitrack Studio? That would be fantastic!

BTW, I'm a Jazz saxophonist and pianist. I've been playing music since the month before Woodstock (July, 1969).

Thanks.....

The scrubbing (for audio tracks, midi, and score editing) has two handles, one in side the editors and one along the top that’s for more “macro” moves

It’s true that the GUI is a bit brutalist, but I’ve come to love it as all processing power goes towards the music, rather than the rendering of visuals. The PC and Mac versions have a few more (simple) GUI options, ie silver and lighter ones. And shipping projects between iPad and desk/laptop is very smooth.
Me, 59.5 years, with just enough piano and sax to get into trouble in the best way. Didn’t start piano lessons til the year after Woodstock.

You mentioned Jazz, I didn’t know there was any other kind of music...

Another sax & piano! Cool! I'm 46 years on the same Mark VI tenor (bought new in 1973). Arturo Sandoval is my role model here - a total badass on a horn and piano. He's sick on both! I moved to near NYC a couple of years ago (from Detroit) and a bunch of "A list"bcats have told me they dig what I'm doing. As in Chick, Ravi, Sanborn, Cobham, Gadd, Ron Carter, etc. Which is very cool! I'm very serious on both instruments.

Reading the literature on MTS, it says "NO BLUETOOTH"!!! I use a CME xKey, Bluetooth, with my iPad. That really isn't a deal breaker for my scrubbing interest, but I do find it odd indeed. Is this still so?

As to scrubbing, before I spend the $30, is this on the basic version, or the "in app purchase" upgrade? And do the notes really sound if I go back and forth ("A, "C#," "A", "C"#," etc.)?

I don't care about visuals, but I need contrast. I don't know why a lot of these apps are dark grey (except maybe that the users are half my age...).

Littlewoodg

@Skyscrapersax
Looks like Bluetooth LE is now supported on iPad (see this latest features list) https://www.multitrackstudio.com/ipad.php

The basic version does indeed support scrubbing and the notes do indeed sound as you scrub backwards and forwards.

I get what you mean, contrast wise. One option might be the “invert colors” option in the tablet’s settings.

Skyscrapersax

@Littlewoodg

Groovy! It looks like a winner! Thanks, and keep playing!

Stiksi

@Skyscrapersax said:
I don't care about visuals, but I need contrast. I don't know why a lot of these apps are dark grey (except maybe that the users are half my age...).

I’ve been fighting a losing battle for greater contrast since 2010 but I can also understand why music apps gravitate towards dark grey: mostly these apps are used in fairly dark rooms along with other devices that are black and computer programmes that are also dark to be easier on the eyes in darkened environments. That doesn’t mean it’s ok to design UI that is dark grey on a little darker grey with a little lighter grey for accent. You can have a dark app with loads of contrast and a perfectly clear interface.

wim

@Stiksi said:

@Skyscrapersax said:
I don't care about visuals, but I need contrast. I don't know why a lot of these apps are dark grey (except maybe that the users are half my age...).

I’ve been fighting a losing battle for greater contrast since 2010 but I can also understand why music apps gravitate towards dark grey: mostly these apps are used in fairly dark rooms along with other devices that are black and computer programmes that are also dark to be easier on the eyes in darkened environments. That doesn’t mean it’s ok to design UI that is dark grey on a little darker grey with a little lighter grey for accent. You can have a dark app with loads of contrast and a perfectly clear interface.

Agree 1000%!!
I simply do not understand the obsession with grid lines that you have to squint to see.

Skyscrapersax

Do you think so? I use my iPad to read music (Real Book stuff) and I want it "light, bright and cheery, just like the Realtor said." Dark? Maybe if you're in a control booth, but not if you're a musician. My computer programmer nephew makes everything dark (including the room), but I think it's a gamer thing. Or maybe it is a power usage thing. Whatever, it's not easy (or good) for ageing eyeballs. Garage Band is actually great in this regard, but it doesn't do what I want. Does Auria (scrub on the piano roll)?

Skyscrapersax

@Littlewoodg

I see you on another post that compares the various iPad DAWS. Auria Pro looks good, too. Does it (or any of the others) feature "piano roll scrubbing"? Thank you!

Stiksi

@Skyscrapersax said:
Do you think so? I use my iPad to read music (Real Book stuff) and I want it "light, bright and cheery, just like the Realtor said." Dark? Maybe if you're in a control booth, but not if you're a musician. My computer programmer nephew makes everything dark (including the room), but I think it's a gamer thing. Or maybe it is a power usage thing. Whatever, it's not easy (or good) for ageing eyeballs. Garage Band is actually great in this regard, but it doesn't do what I want. Does Auria (scrub on the piano roll)?

Well, there are musicians who play acoustic instruments and then there are musicians who create music in a DAW. For acoustic playing, I can understand wanting it bright to see notation at a glance, but for staring at the screen for 8-12 hours a day, a bright white screen would give me a splitting headache. Most of my time for music creation begins when the rest of the family goes to sleep. A dark screen is a huge plus.

Having both a light and a dark mode for the same app is optimal in my opinion.

Littlewoodg

@Skyscrapersax said:

@Littlewoodg

I see you on another post that compares the various iPad DAWS. Auria Pro looks good, too. Does it (or any of the others) feature "piano roll scrubbing"? Thank you!

Couldn’t recall, but just had a quick check, no scrubbing

palms

@Skyscrapersax said:
...it's not easy (or good) for ageing eyeballs.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ywyqxw/apple-dark-mode-eye-strain-battery-life

apparently there aren't enough studies to know for sure what's "better" for your eyes, but it is clear that some people struggle with dark mode while the majority of people seem to find it desirable. I weirdly like both. For reading I prefer light mode, but for music making I prefer less glowing screen distraction, thereby using dark mode whenever possible.

Dark mode does seem to help with battery strain though.

I agree with @Stiksi - wish more apps had customizable skins. I love that about Togu Audio's plugins. Hope that one day they make it over to ios!

hellquist

@palms said:

@Skyscrapersax said:
...it's not easy (or good) for ageing eyeballs.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ywyqxw/apple-dark-mode-eye-strain-battery-life

apparently there aren't enough studies to know for sure what's "better" for your eyes, but it is clear that some people struggle with dark mode while the majority of people seem to find it desirable. I weirdly like both. For reading I prefer light mode, but for music making I prefer less glowing screen distraction, thereby using dark mode whenever possible.

Dark mode does seem to help with battery strain though.

I agree with @Stiksi - wish more apps had customizable skins. I love that about Togu Audio's plugins. Hope that one day they make it over to ios!

Another problem is that too many app/software developers simply invert the colours, and thus "dark" comes to mean "black background" and "light" comes to mean "full white background". In reality neither is really good for long reads.

For dark themes for example there are many shades of grey that can be used, some of which almost look black...until black objects are placed on them and you see the difference. This could also be used for creating outlines of boxes in true black, or shadows (if anyone uses them these days) etc.

Ideally app/software makers would let the users adjust the contrast level between foreground and background, because as you say, for some things "light" is a lot better than "dark", though I prefer "dark" 80% of the time, and setting it automatically on OS level doesn't really work everywhere, for all use cases. Having it adjustable by the user will make any brands marketing team faint though.

Skyscrapersax

@palms said:

@Skyscrapersax said:
...it's not easy (or good) for ageing eyeballs.

Older eyes need more light. This is true on and off screen. It's universal, too. Not to mention larger print!

Skyscrapersax

@Littlewoodg said:

@Skyscrapersax said:

@Littlewoodg

I see you on another post that compares the various iPad DAWS. Auria Pro looks good, too. Does it (or any of the others) feature "piano roll scrubbing"? Thank you!

Couldn’t recall, but just had a quick check, no scrubbing

THIS SAYS IT DOES - OR ARE THEY REFERRING TO SOMETHING ELSE?

http://auriaapp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10331

EDIT: I posted on Auria's forum, and a member their verified that there is NO piano roll scrubbing on Auria. No scoring, either. So, for me for now, Multitrack Studio it is!

Skyscrapersax

@wim said:

Not what you're asking for, but closer ...

With Xequence 2 you can leave play running, then tap in the piano roll where you want playback to be and it jumps there. You can also select some notes and then set the loop to those notes with just two taps.

I like that feature and may get this one too for it!

Skyscrapersax

@Stiksi said:

Well, there are musicians who play acoustic instruments and then there are musicians who create music in a DAW. For acoustic playing, I can understand wanting it bright to see notation at a glance, but for staring at the screen for 8-12 hours a day, a bright white screen would give me a splitting headache. Most of my time for music creation begins when the rest of the family goes to sleep. A dark screen is a huge plus.

Having both a light and a dark mode for the same app is optimal in my opinion.

I could dig a light and a dark option. Think of Broadway pit musicians. Each one has a music stand with a light. One just can't read what is known as "flyshit" (lots of black notes!) in low light situation. Especially since they fire you if you F-UP ONE NOTE! One note!

Skyscrapersax

Having both a light and a dark mode would be great. Try reading the following in low light. It's at 320 BPM:

Here's how it sounds:

All Broadway pit musicians (I may do some of this work) have music stand lights. One just can't read flysh!t in low light!

As to staring at a white iPad (or computer screen) all day, yeah, I can dig it, but I do that for law (I'm also a lawyer). No headache (at least from the light...).

Regardless, my particular, 61.5 year old eyeballs need light. They just do. YMMV, but it's "standard" with aging eyeballs. So, these grey on dark grey iPad apps are nearly impossible to see, especially in light. I need contrast. Hopefully I can adjust my iPad's settings to get it!

Littlewoodg

@Skyscrapersax said:
Having both a light and a dark mode would be great. Try reading the following in low light. It's at 320 BPM:

Here's how it sounds:

All Broadway pit musicians (I may do some of this work) have music stand lights. One just can't read flysh!t in low light!

As to staring at a white iPad (or computer screen) all day, yeah, I can dig it, but I do that for law (I'm also a lawyer). No headache (at least from the light...).

Regardless, my particular, 61.5 year old eyeballs need light. They just do. YMMV, but it's "standard" with aging eyeballs. So, these grey on dark grey iPad apps are nearly impossible to see, especially in light. I need contrast. Hopefully I can adjust my iPad's settings to get it!

Brecker Brothers!

If you haven’t already, be sure to check out Classic Invert (Settings/Accessibity/Classic Invert)
That last screenshot of MTS was supposed to demo Classic Invert but for some reason screenshots don’t show the inversion.

I missed that feature in Auria, I must’ve only tried to use the one finger: two fingers scrubbing for both midi and audio tracks is confirmed. And Auria also has a choice of GUI settings - though not a bunch of contrast there. Classic Invert May be the thing with each of these.

Now it’s a question of which DAW in terms of the other features you’re looking for. Welcome to the quandary!

TimRussell

How does ATOM compare to the apps mentioned above?
And does it have scrubbing for MIDI? I can see how that would be a very useful feature

Skyscrapersax

@Littlewoodg said:

@Skyscrapersax said:
Having both a light and a dark mode would be great. Try reading the following in low light. It's at 320 BPM:

Here's how it sounds:

All Broadway pit musicians (I may do some of this work) have music stand lights. One just can't read flysh!t in low light!

As to staring at a white iPad (or computer screen) all day, yeah, I can dig it, but I do that for law (I'm also a lawyer). No headache (at least from the light...).

Regardless, my particular, 61.5 year old eyeballs need light. They just do. YMMV, but it's "standard" with aging eyeballs. So, these grey on dark grey iPad apps are nearly impossible to see, especially in light. I need contrast. Hopefully I can adjust my iPad's settings to get it!

Brecker Brothers!

If you haven’t already, be sure to check out Classic Invert (Settings/Accessibity/Classic Invert)
That last screenshot of MTS was supposed to demo Classic Invert but for some reason screenshots don’t show the inversion.

I missed that feature in Auria, I must’ve only tried to use the one finger: two fingers scrubbing for both midi and audio tracks is confirmed. And Auria also has a choice of GUI settings - though not a bunch of contrast there. Classic Invert May be the thing with each of these.

Now it’s a question of which DAW in terms of the other features you’re looking for. Welcome to the quandary!

I posted the question on the Auria Forum, and a user there said "NO" to piano roll scrubbing and NO to score.

So, I bought Multi Track Studio, and YES! it does both! The scrubbing is exactly what I wanted, so THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! I am using "smart invert" and I CAN SEE IT. Piano keys are reversed (just like a Hammond for the presents!). Now, I need to figured out how to first play in a line and then pencil in the bass root tones (or overdub by playing). If you haven't guessed why I want this feature, it's to memorize tunes en masse, by interval. I inputted the melody of a tune I know well (Another You), and it works great! Not sure if I can use an IAA app (Ravenscroft or whatever) instead of the built in sounds while using the but in keyboard (or otherwise chop off the blank space), but I suppose either / both is possible? Regardless, for anybody reading this, MTS does indeed, have the proper scrubbing functionality. And it is pretty easy to see with the Smart Invert feature enabled. All my other apps are weird city, but I can turn it off when done with MTS, of course...

BTW, I knew Michael Brecker a little bit. I attended his memorial in NYC. Paul Simon sang "Still Crazy..." with Herbie on Rhodes!

Littlewoodg

@Skyscrapersax
Wow. A precious moment for the memory palace

wim

@TimRussell said:
How does ATOM compare to the apps mentioned above?
And does it have scrubbing for MIDI? I can see how that would be a very useful feature

No scrubbing.

Skyscrapersax

@Littlewoodg said:
@Skyscrapersax
Wow. A precious moment for the memory palace

Yes