getting good on guitar as fast as possible - need advice please!

gkillmaster

Thanks everyone. This is the most helpful advice ever for me and I really appreciate it a lot. Has really got me thinking and feeling hopeful knowing I will be able to get there. Can't thank you enough for the lengthy and brief comments. All is extremely useful to me.

Processaurus

The problem with endlessly practicing scales (as I had for years) is that most good music doesn't have phrases that sound like scales. I got a lot more out of, (there's probably a name for it) the kind of scales practice that is like 1,2,3,2,3,4,3,4,5,4,5,6 etc. rather than just up and down the scales. That and arpeggiating in different keys is very helpful. I've heard Hendrix didn't know all of his scales, he just knew where the 1, 3, 5, 6 were in each key, and it was easy to figure out where the other notes were if he needed them. Arpeggiation can be a faster way to ingrain where the landmark notes are on the neck, and it's easy to fill in the blanks.

If time and your energy level permits, it can be effective to divide practice into building technical skills, practicing a song, and improvisation/noodling.

gkillmaster

@Processaurus said:
The problem with endlessly practicing scales (as I had for years) is that most good music doesn't have phrases that sound like scales. I got a lot more out of, (there's probably a name for it) the kind of scales practice that is like 1,2,3,2,3,4,3,4,5,4,5,6 etc. rather than just up and down the scales. That and arpeggiating in different keys is very helpful. I've heard Hendrix didn't know all of his scales, he just knew where the 1, 3, 5, 6 were in each key, and it was easy to figure out where the other notes were if he needed them. Arpeggiation can be a faster way to ingrain where the landmark notes are on the neck, and it's easy to fill in the blanks.

If time and your energy level permits, it can be effective to divide practice into building technical skills, practicing a song, and improvisation/noodling.

Thanks for this. I really like this approach you outline here. I was coming to the same conclusion to divide it up this way for starters. Its so fun playing along with backing tracks. Wish I could find any song to do this with. I hear there is an app that will take audio and try to split out the separate tracks but can't remember the name of it...

Telstar5

Udemy course , like 20-30 hrs of video for $10 usd. Takes you from the begining. Can't beat it with a stick. Also GuitarTricks on iOS is a. very good course .

Janie

There's already enough info here to keep you busy a long time.

I'm going to add another angle that isn't necessarily intended as advice. It's just something else to consider.

I'm classically trained on piano. Piano paid for my college tuition. That background might have helped me, but I'm completely self-taught on guitar with zero lessons. I never learned guitar the normal way and I never asked for help. I learned my own style mainly by adding complementary parts to great songs. I didn't try to play the existing parts. I made up new parts that made great songs sound even better.

That led to a different set of skills. Not only did I learn to play rhythm parts, I also learned how to do twin leads and alternating leads. Making up new parts also helped with my future songwriting because I was always focused on blending multiple guitar parts together.

It's not that learning Slight Return or Little Wing is a bad thing, but doing that is obviously nothing original. Once you done that then try to write something based on the old, but still new, with titles like Winged Return or Ladyland Voodoo. I don't know you of course, but I'm sure that you have your own unique voice so a great goal is to get to it with your guitar.

Sly Stone songs, Eric Burdon and War, Junior Kimbrough, are all good launching pads for new songs that can go in many cool directions. It's all a blast though, so don't get too bogged down in anything that feels frustrating. I love the previous advice of playing slow and getting parts down cold and then gradually letting your playing rip more and more.

JeffChasteen

@chris_foster said:

@gkillmaster said:
What worked best for you all?

Learn fluid strumming by ripping the low E off and re-tuning to open G ala Keith Richards ...find the sus4 and sus2 shapes and have fun.

When using 6 strings, only let the high E sound out when it adds value. Pull up on it gently with the pinky, use it as an anchor for wrist movement.

Strum primarily with wrist movement pivoting from the elbow, your arm should not be moving from the shoulder for the vast majority of songs.

You have 6 strings, but only use only 3 or 4 at a time (by muting)

Find chords that require very little vertical movement when moving between them, unless they are of the droning variety that require the big vertical movements. I feel it's all about efficiency and finesse with guitar.

Eliminating the 3rd and letting the bassline determine major/minor.

All very very good advice

Telstar5

this is the guy from Udemy

Also for acoustic guitar, "Lick n' riff" is great

mrcanister

sorry to be funny but you stated you want to good as jimmy and yr 64! that simply isn't going to happen. that's a strange attitude to have at 64 too. don't you enjoy playing without setting yourself these 'i want to be a good as' goals. if you were not getting satisfaction playing 3 chord turnarounds in the beginning, then you'll probably always be dissatisfied with the instrument no matter how good you get. the guitar is such an odd instrument, so much fantasy. people approach it like juggling, all about dexterity. i sometimes wish i'd learnt something else but it's a lovely and intimate instrument. enjoy the journey

[Deleted User]

Masanga

The problem with endlessly practicing scales (as I had for years) is that most good music doesn't have phrases that sound like scales. I got a lot more out of, (there's probably a name for it) the kind of scales practice that is like 1,2,3,2,3,4,3,4,5,4,5,6 etc. rather than just up and down the scales. That and arpeggiating in different keys is very helpful. I've heard Hendrix didn't know all of his scales, he just knew where the 1, 3, 5, 6 were in each key, and it was easy to figure out where the other notes were if he needed them. Arpeggiation can be a faster way to ingrain where the landmark notes are on the neck, and it's easy to fill in the blanks.

Joseph Alexander's Fundamental Changes method is great for this; it's primarily aimed at jazz soloing, but the principle is highly transferable. In a nutshell, you learn arpeggios in fundamental chord progressions one position at a time. His key book is the blandly-titled Chord Tone Soloing, which is also available as an iOS app from Leafcutter Studios, and covers 13 progressions in all positions; I also like the minor ii-V-I book, which (like his original Fundamental Changes book) only does one progression in one position, but it's a really great one that leans closer to rock tonalities. Lots of other titles at fundamental-changes.com; good video lessons, too.

gkillmaster

@mrcanister said:
sorry to be funny but you stated you want to good as jimmy and yr 64! that simply isn't going to happen. that's a strange attitude to have at 64 too. don't you enjoy playing without setting yourself these 'i want to be a good as' goals. if you were not getting satisfaction playing 3 chord turnarounds in the beginning, then you'll probably always be dissatisfied with the instrument no matter how good you get. the guitar is such an odd instrument, so much fantasy. people approach it like juggling, all about dexterity. i sometimes wish i'd learnt something else but it's a lovely and intimate instrument. enjoy the journey

ha, yeh. I agree. I just meant my aim was to be that good, mostly tongue in cheek, though I don't think there's harm in dreaming Didn't mean to be taken literally about that so sorry for the confusion. And the only reason my lofty aim is that I do love the experience of playing so much.

ozmot

I'm in the opposite boat as you are. Learned guitar as a small kid and now learning piano as an adult. If your trying to learn Hendrix id recommend practicing your alternate picking. Hendrix really understood the neck but what makes his songs difficult to play is a matter of technique. He was a very rhythmic guitar player, so exorcises that help you to play cleanly and efficient are gonna help a lot. Practing major scales in thirds really helps to build finger strength and can also help with alternate picking. But honestly and this is just my opinion many would disagree. What separates a good guitar player from a mediocre one isn't how many scales and chords they know but how good their overall technique is. And im talking basics, picking, strumming, bending, fingering etc

gkillmaster

@ozmot said:
I'm in the opposite boat as you are. Learned guitar as a small kid and now learning piano as an adult. If your trying to learn Hendrix id recommend practicing your alternate picking. Hendrix really understood the neck but what makes his songs difficult to play is a matter of technique. He was a very rhythmic guitar player, so exorcises that help you to play cleanly and efficient are gonna help a lot. Practing major scales in thirds really helps to build finger strength and can also help with alternate picking. But honestly and this is just my opinion many would disagree. What separates a good guitar player from a mediocre one isn't how many scales and chords they know but how good their overall technique is. And im talking basics, picking, strumming, bending, fingering etc

I have to agree. And as important is being in the music and letting it "speak through you" as a way to put it. Expressiveness and technique definitely go hand in hand. And trying to learn Hendrix songs, I totally agree with your recommendation! Thanks for that! Very good reminder.

gkillmaster

@flo26 said:

Great! very good points!! I need to get to the "effortless" phase. I keep hearing about it

gkillmaster

@JeffChasteen said:

@chris_foster said:

@gkillmaster said:
What worked best for you all?

Learn fluid strumming by ripping the low E off and re-tuning to open G ala Keith Richards ...find the sus4 and sus2 shapes and have fun.

When using 6 strings, only let the high E sound out when it adds value. Pull up on it gently with the pinky, use it as an anchor for wrist movement.

Strum primarily with wrist movement pivoting from the elbow, your arm should not be moving from the shoulder for the vast majority of songs.

You have 6 strings, but only use only 3 or 4 at a time (by muting)

Find chords that require very little vertical movement when moving between them, unless they are of the droning variety that require the big vertical movements. I feel it's all about efficiency and finesse with guitar.

Eliminating the 3rd and letting the bassline determine major/minor.

All very very good advice

Interesting. Will be keeping this at hand. I can kinda see what you are getting at here. Going to try out some susses and see what tuning E will do, or mute it out for awhile. cool...

gkillmaster

@Janie said:
There's already enough info here to keep you busy a long time.

I'm going to add another angle that isn't necessarily intended as advice. It's just something else to consider.

I'm classically trained on piano. Piano paid for my college tuition. That background might have helped me, but I'm completely self-taught on guitar with zero lessons. I never learned guitar the normal way and I never asked for help. I learned my own style mainly by adding complementary parts to great songs. I didn't try to play the existing parts. I made up new parts that made great songs sound even better.

That led to a different set of skills. Not only did I learn to play rhythm parts, I also learned how to do twin leads and alternating leads. Making up new parts also helped with my future songwriting because I was always focused on blending multiple guitar parts together.

It's not that learning Slight Return or Little Wing is a bad thing, but doing that is obviously nothing original. Once you done that then try to write something based on the old, but still new, with titles like Winged Return or Ladyland Voodoo. I don't know you of course, but I'm sure that you have your own unique voice so a great goal is to get to it with your guitar.

Sly Stone songs, Eric Burdon and War, Junior Kimbrough, are all good launching pads for new songs that can go in many cool directions. It's all a blast though, so don't get too bogged down in anything that feels frustrating. I love the previous advice of playing slow and getting parts down cold and then gradually letting your playing rip more and more.

very good advice. Very much appreciate these thoughts! My obsession with these Hendrix songs goes way back to my childhood when I first hear him and he had such a huge impact on me. I was in a band playing keyboards (The Mood Makers embarrassingly). These songs I see as a means to an end. There is so much in them that I feel I can use in developing my own techniques. Oddly, the music I create is very very different. I posted a few on the Soundcloud thread. I like your reminder about not getting bogged down. That is definitely where it leads to sometimes and then I find myself not looking forward to it. So, great advice, thanks...

gkillmaster

@High5denied said:
hmm...... I practice scales every time I play. Mostly just the modes, the three notes per string scales. I think that for some, probably not me, picking songs they like and learning them is what keeps them motivated to continue to play. I do that occasionally, but.......I love to write my own music/songs. I get far more enjoyment out of playing my own riffs, and coming up with new ones.

All that to say, I don't know what will help you progress the fastest, but..........I think it is only helpful, and makes sense to do/play guitar with what is fun and and enjoyable to you. Otherwise, it won't be engaging, and you are probably more likely to do it???/ Half ass? At least, that's how I am. I gotta love it, or I won't do it well, or fast.

Just M.O.

Yes!

gkillmaster

@funjunkie27 said:
Not that I'm much of a guitarist...or even a musician, but what I've found speeds my progress up the most is playing with backing tracks...or better yet, play with others, especially if there's another guitarist who's better than you.

Spent the afternoon yesterday doing this. Hard to find good backing tracks but it was a blast. I think this could be very important for me so thanks a lot!

gkillmaster

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@gkillmaster said:

I can spend 2-3 hours per day. Want to get good enough at lead to improvise and invent riffs and songs. I want to be as good as Hendrix (in my own way ) I want to eventually only play the songs I write but while I'm learning I was to play songs I love like Little Wing and Paranoid Android and Gymnopedies etc... (hundreds on this list)

General rules for learning improvised music styles of any kind:

• Always play in time, unless you're just working out a fingering. Metronomes, drum machines, backing tracks are great to practice with, but it's also good to practice keeping time all by yourself, with no outside help. Playing in time naked helps you build forward motion and groove into your improvisations.

• Don't practice mistakes. Try to always play everything perfectly, with excellent tone, time, and feel. It's better to learn one lick to perfection than it is to half-ass a whole bunch of licks. It's better to learn one song perfectly than it is to kind of almost know a dozen songs. Focus on perfecting one thing in each practice session.

• Focus more on learning songs than licks and techniques. Have a large repertoire of many songs. Try to perfect as many of them as you can. If you have 2-3 hours a day then you do have time to practice technique, which includes chord progressions and arpeggios as well as scales. These are just as important as scales. (Arguably more important in some styles of music, such as jazz.) But learning and practicing songs should take up the majority of the practice session.

• It's okay to compose solos and practice them, even in an improvised style of music. It's good to have things to fall back on when your inspiration runs dry.

• Ear training is key to becoming a competent improviser. You need to hear every note in your mind before you play it, and be able to play anything you can sing. The fastest way to get this ability, and to supercharge your overall musical growth, is to learn other people's songs and solos by ear. Don't rely on transcriptions and chord charts. Work that stuff out all by yourself using only your ear. The first couple of songs will be like torture to get, but then after that it gets easier very quickly. The hard part is having the self-discipline to actually do it all by ear. This practice is what separates the men from the boys, and the good musicians from the wankers.

Such great advice. I need to read this daily! I've played enough to understand the truths in here. Thank you!

gkillmaster

@ghostwaves said:
Not specifically guitar related, but the psychologist Anders Ericsson has done work for decades on "expertise", and some of his major claims are:

1. The 10,000 hours rule (the approximate amount of time to really develop expertise- this appears to hold across several different domains).
2. The importance of "deliberate practice" (i.e. having precisely defined goals, focusing on areas where you are having difficulties, getting feedback from mentors). Probably something like Rocksmith mentioned above would qualify here as deliberate practice as I presume it gives you feedback on how you're playing, and you can progress through different 'levels'.

There's a decent short summary of Ericsson's stuff here:

http://spdrdng.com/posts/summary-peak-secrets-new-science-expertise-anders-ericsson-robert-pool

I don't think it's mentioned there, but one of the things Ericsson has written about is that although performance consistently gets better with practice, the trend is for the rate of improvement to decrease, which often leads to the feeling you've plateaued somewhat. So I wouldn't be too discouraged if you feel you aren't improving as much as perhaps you were initially.

Good luck!

Fantastic. Thanks so much. Very useful...

gkillmaster

@supanorton said:

@gkillmaster said:
For the last couple years I started trying to learn guitar and find it really frustrating. Keyboards were much easier for me cause I learned when I was young. But I feel the learning at this age (64) is very slow going and I'm not progressing as I'd like. I play every day but mostly picking out songs I already know and love. I tried doing scales using a metronome and honestly feel impatient with that approach. At this point, if I could know what would genuinely allow for the greatest progress, I would gladly do it in a disciplined fashion but so far have not hit on a good play method that makes me know I'm progressing. Am so curious to find out what you all think helps the most? Doing scale drills, learning songs you love, improvising to backing tracks? What worked best for you all?

thanks for any thoughts on this,

Greg K.

I've found that learning stuff by Muddy Waters and Howlin Wolf (both with Herbert Sumlin on guitar), Buddy Guy, and Albert King really helped me better understand where Hendrix was coming from. Before he became "Jimi Hendrix", he laid his foundation on those cats.

Yes! Have looked into Albert King but not the other so much. Thanks!

Durwin99

@Masanga said:

The problem with endlessly practicing scales (as I had for years) is that most good music doesn't have phrases that sound like scales. I got a lot more out of, (there's probably a name for it) the kind of scales practice that is like 1,2,3,2,3,4,3,4,5,4,5,6 etc. rather than just up and down the scales. That and arpeggiating in different keys is very helpful. I've heard Hendrix didn't know all of his scales, he just knew where the 1, 3, 5, 6 were in each key, and it was easy to figure out where the other notes were if he needed them. Arpeggiation can be a faster way to ingrain where the landmark notes are on the neck, and it's easy to fill in the blanks.

Joseph Alexander's Fundamental Changes method is great for this; it's primarily aimed at jazz soloing, but the principle is highly transferable. In a nutshell, you learn arpeggios in fundamental chord progressions one position at a time. His key book is the blandly-titled Chord Tone Soloing, which is also available as an iOS app from Leafcutter Studios, and covers 13 progressions in all positions; I also like the minor ii-V-I book, which (like his original Fundamental Changes book) only does one progression in one position, but it's a really great one that leans closer to rock tonalities. Lots of other titles at fundamental-changes.com; good video lessons, too.

I too have found Joseph Alexander's books very useful, in my case for trying to learn some Jazz techniques (so the minor I-V-I book and it's sequels) - they aren't heavy on theory, so you get straight into playing stuff. There are loads of other books in different genres, and the website is very useful.
On the subject of Rocksmith, you should look at the Session Mode part of the program, it is quite useful for playing along with. You can't set the chords, just the key and the complexity affects the chords played by the backing band. Also, I'm sure there is some Hendrix DLC, certainly on the PC version.

gkillmaster

@Durwin99 said:

@Masanga said:

The problem with endlessly practicing scales (as I had for years) is that most good music doesn't have phrases that sound like scales. I got a lot more out of, (there's probably a name for it) the kind of scales practice that is like 1,2,3,2,3,4,3,4,5,4,5,6 etc. rather than just up and down the scales. That and arpeggiating in different keys is very helpful. I've heard Hendrix didn't know all of his scales, he just knew where the 1, 3, 5, 6 were in each key, and it was easy to figure out where the other notes were if he needed them. Arpeggiation can be a faster way to ingrain where the landmark notes are on the neck, and it's easy to fill in the blanks.

Joseph Alexander's Fundamental Changes method is great for this; it's primarily aimed at jazz soloing, but the principle is highly transferable. In a nutshell, you learn arpeggios in fundamental chord progressions one position at a time. His key book is the blandly-titled Chord Tone Soloing, which is also available as an iOS app from Leafcutter Studios, and covers 13 progressions in all positions; I also like the minor ii-V-I book, which (like his original Fundamental Changes book) only does one progression in one position, but it's a really great one that leans closer to rock tonalities. Lots of other titles at fundamental-changes.com; good video lessons, too.

I too have found Joseph Alexander's books very useful, in my case for trying to learn some Jazz techniques (so the minor I-V-I book and it's sequels) - they aren't heavy on theory, so you get straight into playing stuff. There are loads of other books in different genres, and the website is very useful.
On the subject of Rocksmith, you should look at the Session Mode part of the program, it is quite useful for playing along with. You can't set the chords, just the key and the complexity affects the chords played by the backing band. Also, I'm sure there is some Hendrix DLC, certainly on the PC version.

Cool. Will check into both of these. I hadn't looked at Session Mode yet but will. Thank you!

gkillmaster

I think everyone starting out on guitar should read this thread in its entirety. So much wisdom in here! Clarifies so many questions I had.

JeffChasteen

@gkillmaster said:

@supanorton said:

@gkillmaster said:
For the last couple years I started trying to learn guitar and find it really frustrating. Keyboards were much easier for me cause I learned when I was young. But I feel the learning at this age (64) is very slow going and I'm not progressing as I'd like. I play every day but mostly picking out songs I already know and love. I tried doing scales using a metronome and honestly feel impatient with that approach. At this point, if I could know what would genuinely allow for the greatest progress, I would gladly do it in a disciplined fashion but so far have not hit on a good play method that makes me know I'm progressing. Am so curious to find out what you all think helps the most? Doing scale drills, learning songs you love, improvising to backing tracks? What worked best for you all?

thanks for any thoughts on this,

Greg K.

I've found that learning stuff by Muddy Waters and Howlin Wolf (both with Herbert Sumlin on guitar), Buddy Guy, and Albert King really helped me better understand where Hendrix was coming from. Before he became "Jimi Hendrix", he laid his foundation on those cats.

Yes! Have looked into Albert King but not the other so much. Thanks!

Hubert Sumlin is THE man.
I was lucky enough to see him play AND get a hug from him several years ago.
The man was a genius.

JeffChasteen

@gkillmaster said:

@funjunkie27 said:
Not that I'm much of a guitarist...or even a musician, but what I've found speeds my progress up the most is playing with backing tracks...or better yet, play with others, especially if there's another guitarist who's better than you.

Spent the afternoon yesterday doing this. Hard to find good backing tracks but it was a blast. I think this could be very important for me so thanks a lot!

You may want to check out some of the SessionBand apps for solid backing tracks. You can also change the keys, arrangements, tempo, etc...

gkillmaster

@JeffChasteen said:

@gkillmaster said:

@funjunkie27 said:
Not that I'm much of a guitarist...or even a musician, but what I've found speeds my progress up the most is playing with backing tracks...or better yet, play with others, especially if there's another guitarist who's better than you.

Spent the afternoon yesterday doing this. Hard to find good backing tracks but it was a blast. I think this could be very important for me so thanks a lot!

You may want to check out some of the SessionBand apps for solid backing tracks. You can also change the keys, arrangements, tempo, etc...

Great thanks! checking out Hubert Sumlin and SessionBand now.

JRSIV

Devil's Crossroads
599 N State St, Clarksdale, MS 38614

https://goo.gl/maps/BzLStsXQyRS2

It's developed now, no longer two dirt roads, but the legend still stands. Go down to the Crossroads in Clarksdale at Midnight and stand on the corner facing the moon. Bring your guitar, and start playing a slow blues riff in E. After every 12 bar turn-around ask for Legba and say you want to cut a deal...

Dude usually asks for your soul in exchange for quick progress and in weeks, complete mastery of the 6 string guitar. This ain't no Ralph Macchio bullshit. Word is that when you arrive and start thumping an E7 blues a female in a convertible will pull up and drive you out to a country Crossroads on dirt roads, the Clarksdale locale being too developed and robbed of its joojoo. Do this at your own risk brother...

funjunkie27

@gkillmaster said:

Spent the afternoon yesterday doing this. Hard to find good backing tracks but it was a blast. I think this could be very important for me so thanks a lot!

You may want to check out some of the SessionBand apps for solid backing tracks. You can also change the keys, arrangements, tempo, etc...

Great thanks! checking out Hubert Sumlin and SessionBand now.

Another source is to search for guitar backing tracks on YouTube.

gkillmaster

@funjunkie27 said:

@gkillmaster said:

Spent the afternoon yesterday doing this. Hard to find good backing tracks but it was a blast. I think this could be very important for me so thanks a lot!

You may want to check out some of the SessionBand apps for solid backing tracks. You can also change the keys, arrangements, tempo, etc...

Great thanks! checking out Hubert Sumlin and SessionBand now.

Another source is to search for guitar backing tracks on YouTube.

didn't know. thanks!