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Mixing Help Needed (Pink Floyd content)
Attention: People With an Ear for Music
My friend and I are collaborating on a Pink Floyd tune, and I have a rough mix I'd like to run by the community of experts here. (I'm responsible for the mixing as well as the guitar and bass parts; my partner handled vox, drums, and keys.) In general, I tried to stay true to the original album track, but I'm not Alan Parsons, so my mixing could use some attention.
I'm fairly new at mixing, so I'm open to suggestions. I have ideas already regarding certain things that need more focus than others, but rather than put any preconceived notions in the listeners' heads (and ears), I'd like you to just listen without any direction from me and let me know what stands out as needing tweaks, big or small.
For those who know the original tune, I'm changing the ending slightly, so I've faded out the track prior to what I'm planning for my alternate ending.
Thanks in advance for any and all assistance!
EDIT:
Since I've been making new mixes as people provide suggestions, I'm just putting all the mixes in this first post. The most recent mix is first, and progressively older mixes follow.
Comments
you've hit the character already quite nicely, no need to be shy of the performace, too
I didn't listen to the track for ages, but imho mainly the 'space' of the long intro needs some attention. It's not as lush and airy and the instruments appear a bit 'small' in comparison to the original.
No big deal, though - it's just about the choice of the main reverb and you may possibly send the guitar and drums each to their own dedicated reverb (small amount) before they are mixed into the final space.
Listened to the first few minutes as I’m at work and on someone else’s ‘Time’
Initial impressions - Very faithful rendition so far but felt like the conga slaps at the start needed to be pulled back into the mix a little. They are also not quite there. A little mechanical in places.
Strange hearing it in another accent other than Pink Floyds quintessentially English sounding accent!
Great job and playing!
Musically it’s excellent - I wish I could play that well! Only had a quick listen, but would echo the intro tom tom comments - they sound a bit too digital, and need a bit more bottom end. It’s all very clean and sharp, so those of us used to the 70’s mix will find that a bit of a contrast.
Vocals - needs more backing vocals, the harmonies are a big thing on this track. It’s also a good example of Dave Gilmour and Rick Wright’s vocal interplay - if you could find a different vocalist for Rick’s original parts it’d work better. Beefy Dave sections offset by Gentle Rick.
the simultanous plague and grace of our precise tools today...
But a proper reverb can heal a lot in this domain - the pre-reverb can take some edge of the sound and make them boom a bit while the final stage melts them into a lush space.
Thanks for the feedback, guys! I will definitely add some humanization and adjust the reverb on those opening toms. As for the backing vocals, I'm tempted to try doing them myself just to add a different voice to the palette (a la the original). Sadly, I'm distinctly American, so anything I do to sound British will likely come off false.
I also realize the VCS 3 bass in the original is conspicuously missing. I tried a few patches on my own, including using the iVCS, but I couldn't create anything decent. (Synth patch creation is not my forte.)
When you guys are going for a vintage of authentic sound, do you think it would help to try Mic emulators or tape saturation effects?
Good question, and one I've been somewhat struggling with. I think what I've settled on is a non-vintage emulation. In other words, I'm not explicitly looking to channel the '70s production vibe. I want it to sound cohesive, so as long as everything fits together in the mix, I'm happy; it's OK if it sounds more modern production-wise.
Two things
You mentioned humanization- I heard someone mention a trick in an interview of automating a transient designer on percussion parts to give variety to the attacks, that might be helpful to you there. It was on recording studio rockstars podcast, christopher odqvist was the guest, check it out, he has some other cool thoughts on there too.
Second, just listening on iphone speaker right now, but it sounds really good. I definitely understand trying to learn how it was mixed originally, great learning tool, but at the same time, nothing wrong with your own take on it, get the vibe of the original but with your own taste too.
I'm not a huge pink Floyd fan, though I have a ton of respect for them - but I notice the vocal has a more aggressive kind of feel here if I remember the original correctly, again, nothing wrong with that, make it work for you!
Nice job on it so far.
yes, I've noticed that, too - but your approach with just the e-bass isn't too bad.
I didn't associate the VCS just by listening, though. Some moogish would serve equally well, if that's easier to patch for you. DRC and Zeeon are also great in this domain.
it works in particular with budget mics and interface inputs, blurring the sound significantly - which is what you'll be after in that case.
But with a quality mic and preamp I'd rather avoid it.
Artificial tape saturation is just a hype imho.
As was said, musically it’s excellent. Nice job on the guitar parts and tone. Also playing with the reverb as @Telefunky says will help with the space. I like the idea of adding small amounts of reverb to the instruments and running them all to a stereo reverb in the master.
Speaking of reverb, the guitar solo might benefit from more wet signal.
I’m listening on headphones right now, but I thought the lead vocals were too up front and need to be leveled off and set slightly back in the mix. Perhaps a higher ratio on the compression and quicker attack will level them out.
What a cool project. Can’t wait to see how it evolves.
Again, thanks everyone for the feedback and suggestions! I've made a few more changes, so hopefully this mix improves things a bit.
I also tried reducing the rototom volume, but I found it was overpowered by the guitar and electric piano, so I put the level back. Maybe adding reverb and reducing the treble alone were enough to set it back further in the mix.
Here's the new mix:
EDIT
[I moved the link to this mix to the initial post, where I'm putting all the mixes now.]
I hate to be a drag, but I’ve gotta be honest. I think the biggest flaw is the vocal track. The guitar tone is very good, and the mix around 3:49 really shines. But the singer needs to relax and mellow out a little, maybe take some pot or opiates. I feel like the ‘action’ or push of the song should be propelled by the guitar and arrangement instead of the vocals. The vox are very energetic, which is a rare thing to find these days, but for this song, I think they should be sedated.
Haha, cool. But relax the vocal a bit, it sounds a bit forced. And you fade away on “ you missed the starting gun” it’s supposed to be a crescendo there. Guitar solo is very good, but space up the sound a bit. Remember all the pot they smoked when making it. Loved the ending, but not the fade. “You MUST know how to end a song, escpecially lives or there’s no pussy as reward”. That’s the words of a famous vocalist I had the pleasure to work with
All in all. A good cover. Good musicians. Your on the right track...
But I bet you can make your own stuff, just as well. Looking forward to your first self composed work.
K
@kgmessier sorry if I've been confusing you with the reverb hints, but the 1st version is much nicer and overall melts much better - in every domain.
It's not uncommon that such fresh attempts score higher than later 'elaborations'.
On what system/apps are you mixing ? Which reverbs are available ?
Yes, I hear what you're saying about the vox. I don't think this tune is exactly my singer's style, and I offered this project up to him because I'm not a singer and I thought he'd enjoy the challenge. (Plus, he can play keys and drums, and he's just a helluva guy.) This project is mostly done for fun on his end, but we're both benefitting by learning about the recording and mixing process.
Thanks for the feedback, @Kühl. The fade-out is only part of this rough cut; there's an entire second section I'm not done with yet, so I've just faded out the transition so the listener can focus on the whole first part. As for making my own stuff, I'd like to do that. I think that'll likely be in a different realm, however. The world of iOS synths is so new to me that I think I find it easier to experiment in, if that makes any sense.
Oh, crap! Maybe I was too heavy-handed. I recorded all my parts (guitars and bass) on iPad, then I imported those tracks along with the other guy's (vox, keys, drums) into Logic Pro X. For reverb, I've been using FabFilter Pro-R. Aside from that (in Logic Pro), I also have the stock reverb plugins. On iOS, I have more at my disposal. My general feeling, however, is that I should be able to accomplish everything using Pro-R on the Mac or iOS. Were you thinking of a particular plugin that would be more useful for this purpose?
I'd use the AD480 on iPad for the room part and add a bit of Valhalla Übermod (base preset Tape Echo, tuned to >50% feedback for the lush decay stuff.
It's my standard 'afterburner' for space and I use that plugin almost exclusively for just that kind of trick. You may take care that it doesn't get too wide, though.
I often do such special processings on a dedicated track - makes it easier to control.
ps: it's called Tape Echo, but it's not even remotely comparable to the famous Roland device.
I’m liking the way the vocals and guitar solo sit in the mix on the second one but do agree with what @Telefunky says about the reverb. I still struggle with the reverbs I use in Auria and am unfamiliar with what you’re using, so I’m going to stay out of that part. Looking forward to hearing the next one.
Yes, I agree with all the comments, too digital sounding, especially the drums. Toms at the beginning are probably the worst. While the guitar parts are definitely the best.
Singing needs to relax, as someone else already told you.
Study Dave Gilmour's voice, even when he shouts, he's half strength, half whispering.
He was always a better fit for their early sound, (or a more mellow songs) while Waters sounds better when the songs are harsher, edgier. Think of a voice as an instrument rather than a human voice, and you'll get there.
OK, I reverted some of the changes and made a few other adjustments, mostly focusing on the tone of the toms and main drums. The latest mix is at the top of the initial post. I figure I'll just keep them all there in case someone new to the thread happens upon that post and doesn't want to go fishing for the latest mix. (The latest mix is always listed first in that post.)
Again, the vocals are my friend's, not mine, and I don't think he'll be re-recording them. (He's on to a new project now.)
Thanks for the continued comments, suggestions, and overall support, everyone!!!
Good critic. I totally agree with your Pink Floyd voice analysis
However, Syd had a cool voice too...
Thanks. I love Syd as well, the early psy stages, but I had a feeling the original poster didn't want to concentrate on that part of Pink Floyd's career. But I may be wrong...