Groove Rider GR-16 Released!

Iostress

@Samu said:
Being an owner of the Electribe 2 I'd say GR-16 has already passed it when it comes ease of use especially when it comes to editing and automation. The area where the Electribe 2 still shines is more varied factory content when it comes to sounds/samples but that can be remedied with user samples when needed...

I only said the workflow 'CONCEPT' was stolen Dev already admitted it?!? People have invented the rest of what they're arguing against and just causing more thread litter to no doubt complain about if I continue to reply and add to it.. Kind of like catch 22 in an insane asylum..

Iostress

@dendy said:
@Iostress You're simply completely wrong. That's not some subjective debate about what DAW is better, which music style is better or which synth is better (which is purely subjective point of view and one can disagree with subjective opinions of other, and it is completely correct, there is not objective truth in such subjects)

Software developement, application design, implementation, testing and deploying - and also measuring of developers quality - is thing where i have very deeep knowledge, both as depveloper and team leader, application designer.. and i'm saying - in this topic you're simply completely wrong. There is not place for subjective opinions and agreement / disagreement.. There are given objektive facts, whose are defining all this topic.

You understand the basic principes wrong way. Period.

You are missing the point. Again. I don't need to be a coder to know that coding one app is not the same as coding another. More chance of having issues whilst inventing and designing nasa software than coding a calculator app right? Thats the same thing that I'm trying to explain to you, but taken to extremes to make it simpler for you to grasp my point. How are we even arguing about something so black and white?!? Sorry but no more replies from me on this one dude.

Iostress

@ksound said:

@Iostress said:

@ksound said:

@Iostress
The concept for gr16 has been almost entirely stolen from something already proven to (mostly) work (electribe)

But man, how are you going to pound a dev for feature requests, and then be this disrespectful in describing their work?

I'm not going to.. GR16 is what it is. I'm over my initial optimism for development

FWIW my saying the concept is mostly stolen isn't disrespectful at all imho. He already said or implied concept was mostly taken from electribe. You take something without asking or paying, thats kind of the definition of stealing It happens tho. In software, hardware, music, film, whatever... I wasn't saying it in the sense he commited some kind of crime... I'd have thought my meaning was pretty obvious? But instead people seem to zone in on whatever is the easiest thing to twist and turn in to an argument.

Yeesh, you are a winky-faced handful.

People just love to make big deal out of nothing on here. Becomes easy to embarrass oneself or totally lose the original point after endlessly defending/explaining...

Samu

@Iostress said:

I only said the workflow 'CONCEPT' was stolen Dev already admitted it?!?

That's true, most 'innovations' these days are more or less 'inspired' by other existing products and ideas
Considering Roland 'pulled the plug' on ReBirth I'm surprised Korg is silent silent

dendy

I don't need to be a coder to know that coding one app is not the same as coding another.

Thing is, actually without being experienced coder you CANNOT understand those things and your thoughts on how SW developement works, why one app is literally buggy as hell from first release and other pretty stable, are pretty much naive and out of reality :-)

Btw specially just for you, example how breathtaking innovative unseen before concept is BM3 :-)) IMPORTANT - This is not mentioned against Intua, i think it is completely OK to get inspiration (very clear) from one app and move those ideas to next level.. Just want to show you than even Intua "steals" and not invented something completely new.

But this have NOTHING to do with number of bugs.. Just want to show ypu one of many things where you're wrong in this discussion..

dendy

@Samu said:

@Iostress said:

I only said the workflow 'CONCEPT' was stolen Dev already admitted it?!?

That's true, most 'innovations' these days are more or less 'inspired' by other existing products and ideas
Considering Roland 'pulled the plug' on ReBirth I'm surprised Korg is silent silent

This is because Propellerheads explicitly stated that their SW is emulationof TR909,808 and TB303, and used alao sampled sounds from TR machines.. on other side Jim don’t mentions Electribe at any app directly. app has own name, own samples, also oscillator types are not 1:1 copy of those in Electribe (actually there is more oscillator types in GR16), and overally adds lot features which are not present in original E2

So i think from point of view of law, it would be complicated for Korg to shot down Jim’s masterpiece, if not impossible (although i’m not lawyer, so just guessing)

ErrkaPetti

@Iostress said:

@Telengard said:

@dendy said:

@Iostress
Lol. Of course it makes a difference?? An original concept is far harder to design and test than mimicking something that is mostly copied and already tested by another company/General public and known to be a solid workflow.

Man. Again. U don't know anything about coding. I code last 25 years. I'm deeply experienced senior developer, it's my dayjob.

The thing is. It doesn't matter if app is inspired, or even copies VISUAL design of other app or HW have NOTHING to do with fact if it is more or less buggy .. At the end it's developer who have to write every single line of code and quality of that code isn't affected in any way by the fact, if he "steal" UI/UX concept or develop something own, completely new unseen ..

How app looks doesn't affect in ANY WAY how it is stable and how buggy (or bugfree) is coded.

Number of features CAN affect it, using third party APIs (IAA, AB, AUv3, ...) definitely can affect it (and in many cases it's out of control of develooper of app which uses third party APIs, for sure for lot of crashes is not resposible host app put specific IAA / AU plugin)

If we are talking about BM3 - in my opinion biggest problem in this case was poor beta testing. Maybe beta testers didn't their job propertly and deeply enough, i don't know. I worked on lot project last 25 years (as single dev but also as a part of smaller or larget team) - and i must say i never experienced in any project soo much bugs after release - even with project more complex than BM3 and GR16 together ..

If you're genuinely saying that GR16 is as original and as complicated and hard to code and keep bugs out as BM3 is, then fine, but to me that's just nonsense.

Yeah, that's ok, that's just because you know nothing about coding Don't take it wrong .. it's not mentioned to be offensive please ! I'm just trying explain to you something where you obviously have no knowledge. Believe me, i really deeply know what i'm talking about.

The banks system of BM3 is unlike any other daw I ever used.
Saying all this, I never used imaschine so can't say how similar BM3 and imaschine are.
And I wasn't saying there's anything wrong with GR16, just that it is what it is...the concept/workflow is almost entirely taken/stolen/lifted

Whole BM3 is copied iMaschine 2 / Maschine HW concept, specailly in case of iMaschinge down to the level of menu layout and other UI/UX stuff ..of course added some new things, but basically it looks like iMachine 4 :-)
Check some screenshots of iMaschine, Maschine desktop SW and Maschine HW controller and you will see.. there is completely nothing groundgreaking new in BM3 .. Just taken existing pieces and gluing them together and adding some more stuff ..
Which is NOT BAD thing ! Just saying it is far away from groundbreaking new concept

Deny has it right about coding in my opinion. I have been a programmer for a similar amount of time. With 18+ of those years getting paid for it as my main source of income.

If two painters paint an apple, they both will have a different end result. Different shades of red, different techniques used to apply the paint, different starting canvas, etc... Coding is very similar.

My point was that it's going to be much less problematic to paint an apple if you have seen an apple before and you have one in front of you. Than if you haven't and you don't

And also that GR16 is like painting an apple on a white background. BM3 is a bowl of fruit in front of moving scenary.

Thats probably enough with the fruit talk

Basically I just said it was unfair to be harsh on BM3 for having bugs and not having squashed them all yet whilst using GR16 as a comparison to measure against. Intua are clearly still working out parts of the workflow concept out via feedback and there's a lot more moving parts and workflow refinements to be done in bm3 than with GR16 and it's not only bugs that BM3 have been focusing their time on (implementing midi AU and a TON of other tweaks and additions). Personally I'd rather have access to it now as it is than have to wait til it's more bug free.

No big deal though. Didn't mean for it to become a big derail!

And, the most important to take in consideration, we all have paid peanut-money for both BM3 and GR-16!
Can't understand why so many complaining as the app have costed them hundreds of bucks...

Be happy and enjoy what we have, and, a bug or two doesn't stop us from making great music on iOS!

(This it not against you, @Iostress )...

Iostress

@dendy said:

I don't need to be a coder to know that coding one app is not the same as coding another.

Thing is, actually without being experienced coder you CANNOT understand those things and your thoughts on how SW developement works, why one app is literally buggy as hell from first release and other pretty stable, are pretty much naive and out of reality :-)

Btw specially just for you, example how breathtaking innovative unseen before concept is BM3 :-)) IMPORTANT - This is not mentioned against Intua, i think it is completely OK to get inspiration (very clear) from one app and move those ideas to next level.. Just want to show you than even Intua "steals" and not invented something completely new.

But this have NOTHING to do with number of bugs.. Just want to show ypu one of many things where you're wrong in this discussion..

Lol. Ridiculous conversation. No need to repeat yourself over and over. I get it. You think GR16 and BM3 are equally complicated/time consuming to design/code/debug/maintain. You think they're equally original in concept. You think BM3 is as much indebted to iMaschine as Gr16 is indebted to electribe. Etc. Fair enough. I disagree and don't care enough about any of this to carry on arguing..

Both great apps. Let's move on yeah?

db909

stormbeats

Damn not been on here for few hours and this bickering - gentlemen gentlemen

Mark B

Back on topic. I’ve already reviewed this app but I keep getting the ratings request dialog. I think this might be resetting on every update.

SMKArtist

@Samu said:

most 'innovations' these days are more or less 'inspired' by other existing products and ideas
Considering Roland 'pulled the plug' on ReBirth I'm surprised Korg is silent silent

My guess as to why Korg has been silent is due to the fact that what @jimpavloff has done is "original code". Korg can't do anything about his app or software being similar. Since none of their code is in the app, Korg can do nothing. It's better for Korg to just continue doing what they have been doing regarding the Electribe 2 and 2S. Ignore it.

LeonLeroy

this thread is half bullshit and half greatness.

TheVimFuego

@LeonLeroy said:
this thread is half bullshit and half greatness.

Bullness or Greatshit?

rs2000

@dendy: I beg to differ somewhat. I'm not a coder but I've done many software designs and worked in teams with many coders.

Buggy software IMHO is not the fault of inappropriate software testing, but rather an incomplete design in the first place. BM3 and GR-16 are both relatively complex beasts that have hundreds of different states that have to work consistently and functionally correct in any combination. It happens too often that the software architects simply don't consider them all, usually simply for the lack of time, leading to all kinds of unexpected or just undefined behaviour. It can be hard for a developer to accept that it can be necessary to put one year of manpower only into proper software design, without writing a single line of code.
It can also be hard to believe that the time you invest into code design not only pays in the end, but also helps setting up a realistic schedule for the whole project. But it does.
Like an elaborate state machine is essential for any network protocol, or a very detailed functional design is required for any software in general, this kind of design element is just as important for an iOS DAW.
If you skip this part, you rely on the coder hopefully considering all possible scenarios and interactions while writing the code, which is highly unlikely because he's already busy fixing issues, reading the SDK and finding answers to questions not covered in the SDK docs.
I don't mean to rate devs, really, but this is where I see an obvious difference between the development processes of Mr. Pavloff and intua.

dendy

@rs2000 i don't want to generate more offtopic here, but yeah, there is lot of truth in what you wrote .. app design have big importance (but beta testing too - looks like BM3 failed in both those elements ...

Iostress

@rs2000 said:
@dendy: I beg to differ somewhat. I'm not a coder but I've done many software designs and worked in teams with many coders.

Buggy software IMHO is not the fault of inappropriate software testing, but rather an incomplete design in the first place. BM3 and GR-16 are both relatively complex beasts that have hundreds of different states that have to work consistently and functionally correct in any combination. It happens too often that the software architects simply don't consider them all, usually simply for the lack of time, leading to all kinds of unexpected or just undefined behaviour. It can be hard for a developer to accept that it can be necessary to put one year of manpower only into proper software design, without writing a single line of code.
It can also be hard to believe that the time you invest into code design not only pays in the end, but also helps setting up a realistic schedule for the whole project. But it does.
Like an elaborate state machine is essential for any network protocol, or a very detailed functional design is required for any software in general, this kind of design element is just as important for an iOS DAW.
If you skip this part, you rely on the coder hopefully considering all possible scenarios and interactions while writing the code, which is highly unlikely because he's already busy fixing issues, reading the SDK and finding answers to questions not covered in the SDK docs.
I don't mean to rate devs, really, but this is where I see an obvious difference between the development processes of Mr. Pavloff and intua.

Precisely my point! BM3 just has a million more variables than grooverider. And subsequently a million more unforseeables. And it’s constantly evolving. Would have been in beta forever if they were to try and tidy it up to the ‘finished’ state of gr16 before release. How this isn’t obvious to someone like @dendy that works in software just baffles me? There was zero need for any argument about it. Gr16 has been designed to be locked down within a dev defined set of Variables and function combinations/instances and based on a workflow concept that has been proven to work already. Bm3 is the total opposite. Must be a nightmare for a small team like Intua but they’re constantly making progress and the app is plenty usable now so I’m behind them and wish them luck. As do i wish luck to Jim also. Doesn’t have to be some kind of death match like @dendy keeps trying to instigate. Room for both apps....they’re totally different.

dendy

@Iostress

Ok, we will compare number of bugs in NS2 after release with number of bugs in BM3 after release .. that would be head to head relevant comparision also for you, i hope ... NS1 had significanly less bugs than BM2 (and some major bugs, even reported, were never fixed in BM2), well see if that trend will continue ..

Iostress

@dendy said:
@Iostress

Ok, we will compare number of bugs in NS2 after release with number of bugs in BM3 after release .. that would be head to head relevant comparision also for you, i hope ... NS1 had significanly less bugs than BM2 (and some major bugs, even reported, were never fixed in BM2), well see if that trend will continue ..

Ok you win! Enjoy your day

db909

Does anyone use this app?

dendy

on daily basis preparing ideas, loops, melodies for transfering to NS2 after it will be released :-) inlove with that synth engine ..

robosardine

@db909 said:
Does anyone use this app?

Which app?

db909

@robosardine said:

@db909 said:
Does anyone use this app?

Which app?

Grooverider

ErrkaPetti

@dendy said:
on daily basis preparing ideas, loops, melodies for transfering to NS2 after it will be released :-) inlove with that synth engine ..

Perhaps @dendy is a matter of fact the guy behind Nanostudio ;-)

I will sit back and enjoy the different forums around when NS2 will be released, and, it will be full of bugs, and, many many angry guys out there will think that the betateam has done an awful job...

NS2 in march and as an universal app? No way!

db909

@dendy said:
on daily basis preparing ideas, loops, melodies for transfering to NS2 after it will be released :-) inlove with that synth engine ..

Nice! Synth engine has consistently surprised me. It seems so simple but I’ve yet to run into a situation where I couldn’t get what I wanted out of it

dendy

@db909

exactly ! i'm notmally into complex synth / lot of oscillators, lot of envelopes, lot of lfos, mega mod matrix

but here this simple concept is innkany cases perfect - with minimum effort, literally after few seconds of tweaking - you get sound you need

[Deleted User]

@dendy said:
@db909

exactly ! i'm notmally into complex synth / lot of oscillators, lot of envelopes, lot of lfos, mega mod matrix

but here this simple concept is innkany cases perfect - with minimum effort, literally after few seconds of tweaking - you get sound you need

Agreed

db909

@DaveMagoo said:

@dendy said:
@db909

exactly ! i'm notmally into complex synth / lot of oscillators, lot of envelopes, lot of lfos, mega mod matrix

but here this simple concept is innkany cases perfect - with minimum effort, literally after few seconds of tweaking - you get sound you need

Agreed

Especially fun to use the jog wheel like a random button to fly through the oscillators, mod, fx while you tweak stuff

stormbeats

@dendy said:
@rs2000 i don't want to generate more offtopic here, but yeah, there is lot of truth in what you wrote .. app design have big importance (but beta testing too - looks like BM3 failed in both those elements ...

@jimpavloff @dendy @rs2000 i agree with you 100% Jim has done a great job with GR few ironing outs and he sorted it in no time -

dendy

@ErrkaPetti said:..

Perhaps @dendy is a matter of fact the guy behind Nanostudio ;-)

Who knows ? Maybe yes, maybe no