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iOS pianos and keyboard controllers
Hi all, this is my first post to the general forum, and I am also very to new to iOS music production. I have learned lots already from participants in the Xequence thread including the developer, SevenSystems. I recommend it, as Xequence, even to a neophyte such as myself, seems to be a marvelous sequencer.
My questions are:
Opinions on the best iOS piano recreations. I am favoring Ravenscroft 275 but have some concerns using it with my iPad 4 (the entry level recommendation) as I have read about crackles and pops inherent in this great sounding app. Is there really sympathetic string resonance on this app? If you silently hold down a key and strike another do they both resonate? If so, this must be the only iOS in its class... Maybe Colossus does it as well? Also considering CMP. I have tried Korg Module LE and even that piano is superior in sound quality to my Roland FA07 patch which I had originally thought quite good as it is one of their SuperNatural samples. Also considering CMP.
Is it only me that feels a certain distance between a controller keybd and instrument apps? It is not a latency issue that I can detect with my ears and no amount of tinkering with velocities on either my Roland FA-07 or Casio AT5 seems to help. If I compare it to the immediacy of the FA07 on its own there is no doubt as to the difference. Any ideas out there on how to overcome this?
What keybd controllers are most favored in the community? I am living in Istanbul, Turkey so not every brand is available. Korg, Roland, Yamaha, Kawai, some Akai, IRig are here.
I will greatly appreciate your response.
Thanks for listening. What a great forum!
Comments
One piano I'm very partial to is the Alan Parsons Imperial Grand in SampleTank. It's a little softer and darker than most other options on iOS.
I think it kind of depends on what your needs are. If you're mostly composing / doing key work you're going to want something with at least 49 keys I'd think, a damper etc.
I can vouch for the KORG Nanokey studio, the knobs and pads are nice to have and the fact everything maps with Gadget natively is cool. I've also used it with my Mac and Reason and it works just fine. The key action is going to be very disappointing if you're a keyboardist though...
If possible, head to a music store and just check em out! If I didn't have the Nanokey I'd definitely consider some Novation kit, unsure if they're available by you though.
About the latency issue. Have you correctly adjusted the buffer size and sample rate settings, and do you use an audio interface or run the sound out of headphone jack?
What you should also keep in mind is that getting lower latency with buffer and sample size settings requires more power from cpu. Trying to use cpu hungry app on low cpu power ipad means that you need to choose between pops/crackles and higher latency. No idea how your ipad runs what ever piano apps, but im sure that with low latency settings you cant do much else on the ipad before cpu overloads and crackles
You could even consider running a good Grand Piano soundfont loaded in bismark bs-16i.
There are some out there (even for free) with diferent sizes that sound pretty good (in some ways, you know). That's what I use sometimes with M-Audio Keystation 32 + iPhone 5s.
Not as DAW input but for practising piano scores.
ToMess: I run the sounds out of a headphone jack into my Roland FA07 and then to Mackie MR4s. Usually no sound problems. The pops and crackles I have only read about re the RC 275.
Icsleepers: yes, I am a jazz pianist, unfortunately used to a Steinway B. I don't mind a good synth action, however, for the ease of speed.
Hey LL
If you have played real pianos your whole life, the latency may always be noticeable to you , even at the lowest settings. You won’t hear it, but you definitely could feel it if you are sensitive enough. Playing for as long as you have, I would think you have the sensitivity level to feel it.
If the latency continues to bug you, I would suggest looking for a better piano controller. If you find one that feels good a responsive to your playing you will enjoy it more than a cheap midi controller. Find one with a good enough internal, on-board piano sound set for your live playing to get rid of the latency, but make sure it has Midi Out so you can record the midi performance data. You can change the sounds to whatever you want later when you playback the Midi recording.
Just giving you another idea, if the latency is driving you nuts. If you focus on a digital piano that feels good when you play, you won’t have to spend as much for one that also has the best sounds. You can change the sounds to your iOS apps once the Midi is recorded, so just get a piano that sounds good enough for your preliminary composing and to monitor your playing while recording the Midi data.
I'm working on similar evaluations to have a good portable keyboard set up using my iPhone 5S (1 GB RAM 64GB of storage). To date I have purchased and used these piano products:
Korg Module (fair pianos in default settings) $40 RATE: 2
upgraded (In App Purchase) to Ivory Grand $30 RATE: 4
load times: 12 seconds - change models in a few seconds
storage used:
Colossus Piano - free but NO SOUNDS
NOTE: I think this program streams data from disk while
playing and my iphone adds CPU noises to the sounds
sometimes. I'm using mini-plug cables to my Casio and I think I
need better shielded cables to fix this. This app uses the
hardware to it's maximum limits to great effect for playing
piano.
I bought Baby Grand model $27 RATE: 5 for realism with a
Casio.
Keyboard controller playing Moonlight Sonata with really soft
sections and the piano tone is amazing. Loud really cuts
through.
* The $50 Model product needs a lot more RAM than I have to
work well. But when i upgrade to a 2GB or 4GB RAM iPad I'm
getting it to help me get over selling my 7'9" Concert Grand. I'll
get that stress relief playing experience using headphones.
load times: 60 seconds
storage: 7GB with main app added
bought the Classic B Grand $17 RATE: 5 perfect size for also
doing other things on the iPhone like drum machines,
SampleTank Strings, etc.
load times: 30 seconds and change models can take 30
seconds every time. These Colossus samples have a lot of
layers and extra features that make them huge to load.
storage 1.7GB
iGrand upgraded from free to Full $20 RATE 4
load times: 10 seconds
storage: 700MB (small and sounds good with a lot of tones)
NOTE SURE WHAT iGrand FREE provides these days for a piano sample.
BS-16i $8 and added optional upgrades to full Hi-Res Synth $5 and 128 note polyphony $3
good piano in the default General MIDI sound set RATE: 4
added free SoundsFonts4U 6-Layer Yamaha C5 Grand sound set
RATE: 5
SampleTank:
pianos: 1
added Miroslav Symphonic 2 add-on and theres a RATE 3
Grand in it but this gave me realistic strings and all the
orchestra instrument and caught a sale at 50% - $25.
SIDEBAR: Then I added Korg's Orchestra to Module and added
Gadget to be able to create loops, etc.
I have this Casio PX-560 keyboard as a controller so my piano
keys feel like a true Grand Piano but I want portability so I bought a cheap MIDI controller and I really need something with weighted keys to allow me to play Moonlight Sonata and Jazz.
The cheap controller is OK for synths and organs, etc like most cheap synths have anyway.
NOTE: The great samples fill that 1GB of RAM in the iPhone 5S and your iPad 4 so that's all you can do is load and play or you have snap, crackle, pop added to the music.
I'd start with the BS-16i and test SoundFont Piano samples of increasing sizes to balance the RAM trade off of quality of sound with ability to add more App features like AudioBus3 $10 or AUM $20 for mixing and all the other great music making products.
I'll probably get the Ravenscroft 275 and CMP pianos overtime to complete the test drive and understand all the tradeoffs.
When I started making complex music projects and upgrade my iPad I'll learn more... I bought "System Status" to try to understand the RAM and CPU effects of these products but that's not a trivial exercise and in the end the road test of the product set up they way you make music is key. Start with the cheapest, smallest piano sample and upgrade as the sound become annoying. That's what I experience. I love a sample but it notice defects and tone issues after playing for 10 minutes and the bigger samples with better software implementations like Colossus and Korg's products make me glad I have them. They play better and longer than the $1200 Casio Grand sounds and I carry them in my pocket. Now I just need a great light weights weighted MIDI controller and battery powered speakers to complete my backpack performance setup.
@McDtracy Hello. Great information you shared. I see you joined the forum recently, and would like to say “Welcome.”
Yeh, great post @McDtracy. Yours too @CracklePot. Excellent advice about considering a keyboard with on board sounds + midi out!
The bottomless pool of wisdom and knowledge around here never ceases to amaze me.
Now I'm seeking a MIDI controller that simulates the feelings of playing a real piano at the lowest possible weight. If you play piano well the keybed experience influences the psycho-acoustics of the experience using IOS pianos. When I use the cheap MIDI controller I can't make any of the pianos sing.
Or maybe fewer keys to drop the weight and cost?
Maybe this could be a new thread huh? I can also hit a digital piano forum and get their input.
"I'll be back." - The Terminator (before he becomes the Governor) and now he the Walking Dead.
Strange, Detective Tracy... I just posted a thread... 15 Apps for a Near Perfect World... You beat me to the punch! Great outline... Please share on my thread ( is it 15, I didn't count!) we are strangely similar, I am selling my Steinway B and seeking the perfect controller. When I sell it I am considering a Kawai MP11 se or their VPC-1 with a Ravenscroft piano. Those are too heavy for your needs, however. May I suggest the Roland A88. Not my favorite action but still preferable for piano than a synth action.
I am really enjoying a recently purchased Roland FA07 (nice synth action) heavily researched and, imho, the best in its price range (around1500 US, 6000 Lira if you're in Turkey!). I thought the SuperNatural piano quite good till I heard the Ravenscroft.
But back to iOS land... Thank you Mr. Pot for more great thoughts. Yes, maybe it is the 23 ms (iSymphonic) or so that I am not hearing, but still feeling. Is that really possible? Perhaps
McDtracy and others can weigh in on this, too.
Probably the A88 is right for me, too, for now. Just can't fit it into our car along with my wife's Pekinese and mixed breed palindrome doggie, Ada. Everyone who can leaves Istanbul in the summer for the seashore. Just too damned hot.
I'm starting to think maybe the best aspect of this iOS venture is the Audiob.us forum!
Signed, Lonely Expat
I went digging into the Digital Piano forum and added this to my short list:
Studiologic Numa Compact 2x 88-key Semi-Weighted Keyboard with Aftertouch $699 at 15.6 lbs.
Trading real piano feeling for extreme light weight. I wonder if
Guitar Center might have one to test or maybe a refundable purchase. Hmm... I'm upgrading to the new 2018 iPad this week
which will double my RAM to 2GB and ordering the Korg plugkey to improve the quality of my audio out (reduce the noise of an analog out the headphone jack). Then I might be able to use that headphone jack with my iRig Guitar adapter. It might work?!
And I could stillrun the iPhone 5S over the USB midi out on may Casio maybe and have 2 IOS devices... then I'll need a small mixer but with some velcro this could be an assume set of portable capabilities assuming there's a PA available. If not the next year I'll research battery powered PA/Amps like the Roland stuff.
Colossus White Baby Grand iap is my favorite piano right now, but I am no piano player.
Ditto.
Would be great to read your compared views when you get the Ravenscroft and CMP.
Hi guys, thanks for your input. It's interesting that on a thread I started about 15 apps for the perfect studio no one chose a stand alone piano. Why do you think that is? Is it too genre specific?
I am concerned Ravenscroft and my iPad 4 won't like each other. Any experience out ther! so maybe CMP to start.
McDtracy, I don't see how you can adjust after your concert grand experience to what you are thinking of. Please check out painoman Chuck's videos on Ravenscroft and Ravensworks if you haven't seen them. You sound like a very talented player... What genre(s) are you interested in?
I am using the optional Korg Module "Ivory" piano sounds and I really like them a lot. They are the best piano I have tried - but I've not listened to the Ravenscroft and some of the other options that have been listed.
BTW, I am interested in what people think about the StudioLogic. I'm debating between 73 key hammer action and an 88 key also - can't make up my mind.
This keyboard is not out yet - but I would like to see a review on it when it arrives:
Studiologic SL73 Studio Keyboard Controller with Hammer Action
I'm not a great player... just a retired engineer that could afford to by a Concert Grand with some stock option winnings. But I find that keyboard experience to be my best form of meditation and these Sampled Piano products are helping me endure the loss of that amazing tool and using headphones allows me to go there at anytime and soon anyplace. My musical interests are classic jazz (Bill Evans), blues (SRV) and pop (James Taylor, Billy Joel). I tend to focus on live playing using these tools for looping and creating customized backing tracks. I have a nephew that's an EDM master and his studio experience has helped my put my MacBook Pro into use as a recording/creation tool. I'll be lurking here daily to learn about new products and sales as I impulse buy tools for the new iPad I'm getting for my birthday. I'm debating the new 2018 iPad vs the 10.5" iPad Pro... 2GB RAM vs 4GB of RAM and 2X the cost. If I start video'ing and editing then that tips the scales to more RAM and Storage. Decisions, decisions... I started a discussion of iPad trade offs at the Keyboard Mag Forum that helped and RAM and screen size to display charts was advocated but I can see a smaller form factor as being useful in what might essentially be a sound module. Of course, there are justifications for having both, right? GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) can't be cured... just controlled by getting married.
RE: my genre preferences - Jazz (Bill Evans, Chick Corea), Blues (SRV) and Singer/Songwriters (James Taylor, Billy Joel). I have a nephew that's an EDM master but I'm from the acoustic/fusion generation. I respect all music that delights or inspires me... Todd Terje's electronic creations for example. I heard one of his tracks on "Better Call Saul" and was amazed by his creative capabilities - I've never heard anything like that. It's like the first time I heard "Switched on Bach" in 1968 - mind sufficiently blown yet? You get these experiences every few years and they persist in your memory and can alter lives.
I was advised at a young age to never sell and instrument... you'll only grow to regret it. But I didn't listen because I often saw them go to someone that would really benefit from having it. My 1965 Wurlitzer and 1940 Deagen Vibes ended up being the models for some young guy's sample library business in 1990 for example. That's got to be a greater good than collecting dust in my garage right? "Pay it forward" thinking.
Well, Spookyzoo, I won' be reporting on RC 275 or CMP because I couldn't resist the IK bundle with igrand, sample tank and iElectric for $24 on sale and here's why...
I was really concerned the RC piano would not work properly on my ipad4. Neither RC or CMP offered a free sample, unlike igrand ( I liked it, actually). Additionally Sampletank offers Miroslav Philharmonic 2 inapp (the new version much improved over the original (the demos I heard are terrific) and, finally, my modest Casio controller wouldn't do the Ravenscroft justice. So for now the igrand and its variants seem just fine. I think Miroslav has some pianos, too. $75 total investment.
So until I can get my hands on that beautiful Kawai VPC-1, the ultimate ios piano app will have to wait (oops, forgot about Colossus!)
iGrand is pretty great... it loads reasonably and changes models very quickly which makes me think they use software rather than distinct sample sets which is what I think Colossus does. Switch Models in Colossus can be painful. Definately not great for live work.
So... I bought AUM to test Colussus model switching using the AUv3 interface. I'll let you know... it does seem faster but more testing is needed.
The Miroslav samples for pianos are good but seem a little flat meaning their aren't a lot of velocity based samples I think. But it's useful for a concert piano in an orchestral mix. Just not outstanding for solo playing IMHO.
Of course, a lot of these views are opinions... in general Ravenscroft, Ivory and iGrand seem to get the most positive feedback statistically. So, grab that iGrand even for iPhones. iElectric is OK but won't run on the iPhone... go figure.
I have iGrand, Korg Module with Ivory extension, Colossus Japanese Grand as well as the Ravenscroft - yes a true piano tragic.
I'm trying to be objective as humanly possible in the position I am in (as the creator of the sf2 version of the Salamander Grand piano - with Alexander Holm being the original creator of the sfz version) but I find I am still drawn to the freebie piano available on my website https://sites.google.com/site/soundfonts4u/
above all of the pianos mentioned above.
Spend $8 on the bs-16i soundfont player and you can play this one and many others.
For anything under an iPad Air 2 I suggest you load the smaller 6 velocity layer pianos. If you have a new iPad then go for the full 15-velocity version.
I will definitely look into your bs-16i, Reuben. Nice to hear from you! Could you write a little more about your thoughts on the main iOS piano contenders? I think everyone would appreciate your observation and analysis of the scene. And thanks for your generosity.
What is your opinion of Miroslav Philharmonic 2? The demos in SampleTank are fabulous. However, Doug' sound on the soundtestroom hardly seem like the same app! Also the difference between MP 1 and 2 if you are familiar.
Finally, when you speak of 6 vs -15 velocity layers are you distinguishing RC from igrand,, or are there two versions of some pianos available?
Look forward to learning more from you!
My opinion:
Ravenscroft - nice sharp almost metallic sounding piano and very detailed in expression and sympathetic resonances but unfortunately has glitches on my Air2 or 6s when samples reload every 30s or so. A very nice sound but for for me unusable. Would be 8/10 if it worked, 2/10 on Air2 because it doesn't.
iGrand - with added purchases the Rich Upright is my favourite. The Grands are bland and not very expressive and velocity switching it too obvious and there seems to be only 2 or 3 layers. 7/10
SampleTank - with expanded pianos the tone is good but basic to nil expression in playing. 5/10
Korg Module with Ivory Extension - There is just something a little odd about the Korg pianos that make playing them uninspiring - like there is some cotton wool in your ears and you seem disconnected. 6/10
Colossus - I don't have the "big one" but did purchase the red Japanese Grand. I was hoping for great things but was unimpressed with this. The claimed 5ms latency just does not ring true and the delay on my Air2 annoys me enough to not want to play it. 5/10.
Bismark bs-16i loaded with free Yamaha-C5 and free Upright Pianos from https://sites.google.com/site/soundfonts4u/
What can I say - I prefer these by a long shot. You have a choice of 6-velocity layer versions for smaller devices (Air2 and under) and up to 15-sampled-velocity pianos for newer devices. As the compiler of these I will leave the rating to others.
I have not tried the Miroslav Philharmonic so unable to comment on these sounds.
I still think bs-16i is the unsung hero of actual playing with a midi keyboard. You can add layers of strings or pads or whatever under your instruments and mix on the fly.
Auria's Lyra can load really huge EXL libraries, so if you have a EXS piano library you really like, just import it into Auria.
May i suggest Pianoteq on a lightweight macbook?
As soon as you leave iOS everything becomes easier
in terms of configuring latencies, adding usb controller
and options for audio output.
You may find a suitable combination of controller,
latency, audio interface while powering the ipad.
But as soon as you change any of that you may run
into problems with the other components.
I like iOS for tinkering around but having reserves and
options in the macbook world gives me more headroom
in all of these departments while retaining semi mobility.
Ravenscroft hands down. Don’t waste your money and time on anything else.
Disagree here, although reviewing things like this is very personally and subjective...
I can confirm that I’m not that impressed with Colossus with one of the IAP... But I really love everything else the company Crudbyte makes!
To my ears the piano IAP in Beathawk 2 make me most happy!
Only 330MB, but the tone and the soul of this piano makes me cry when playing nice and sad songs in minor...
And, as you mention here, the free soundfont2 piano callled Salamander in Auria Pro are incredible good!
But, in the end, there’s so much things happening around the pianos that made them good or bad, like effects and our speaker systems/headphones...
As many pianos is recorded pretty dry I always wants some kind of reverb on them, and, there we have a problem...
Reverb on many other sounds is fine, but pianos are very sensitive for unnatural reverbs.... Like Virsyns reverb most here...
And, I dont agree that Korg Module with IAP from Synthogy sounds bad... The warm Ivory Grand is my favorite there...
But, in the end, we have differences in ours senses that made us think and believe different...
Thank you all for your experienced opinions. As I said, my controller is not so great, so even if it did function on my iPad correctly the RC would be undone by my Casio. The igrand and variations are ok for now..
Very curious about the Bismarck, Reuben and will look into that.
Thanks dreamrobe, that's good advice. Will get there eventually.