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Comments
I guess I'm a true believing kool-aid drinker because Joe Diorio pretty much says the same thing.
I've been name-called enough that I don't care as long as the results are produced.
I like these ideas to improve my arsenal of tools.
I see great players use fingers in ways that I never tried and this might unlock new skills.
I do a lot of these chordal workouts and it really helps but I still have a long way to go:
I wish I had 20 years left but I'll keep working until I can't.
Wow - just about every great musician I know would disagree with that ( writers and artists too )
This statement gives no importance to the sub conscious, a powerful potent well that we can dip in and out of as creators or improvisors.
I also think in the context of songwriters, the creative mind is the one to draw from - not the thinking mind.
From the studies I have done on great songwriters, most of them say the greatest songs of there careers just came through pure expression and improvisation - pretty much in one writing session.
None of them talk about any thinking/planning - left brain stuff.
In my world, when improvising or writing, the thinking mind is the easiest route, just a toolbox, and often my enemy.
The creative mind is freedom, my greatest asset.
@LinearLineman - thank you for another great discussion
Sorry. I get frustrated by the instructions provided in Connie's videos. There isn't a complete set of
I looked for other Lenny Tristano acolytes and found one named Dave Frank that's closer to my needs and results.
There are something like 20 videos detailing the teaching techniques Lenny provided. It helps explain the importance of singing to develop the "inner ear" faculty that great players have so they are not just playing patterns they have memorized or drilled. They can hear music internally and transmit it to the fingers. I can hear music internally but often have no idea what notes I'm "singing".
I'd love to work towards developing the special skill for listening and playing.
@LinearLineman
I'm a fan of composing duotonic (2-note polyphony) melodies. Although I don't do it often, to me it feels like the most barebones way of composing a good harmony foundation without putting much focus on which chords to choose.
@McD
I've learned a lot about FZ's "improvised unstructured" soloing by watching Dweezil's guitar courses.
Now why would a keyboard player ever watch that?
Because there's much more structure in it than you might think, apart from the fingerings that are probably not too useful on a keyboard
I agree, time is likely the most limiting factor for most of us.
Thanks @McD I'll check out the Dave Frank video soon. I look forward to the results of your practice from the video(s).
For the time being I will start with the week one training method @LinearLineman posted in the OP. "Pick a melody and practice it slowly" - sounds pretty clear to me. So for the moment, he shall be my teacher, not his teacher.
Are you guys talking about sight reading vs. improvisation skills? He never said that time spent on sight-reading will reduce your improvisational skill... or the other way around.
But if you really want to know, then you can devise an experiment for yourself, keeping a practice, and recording your results.
Every practice schedule I create for myself is an experiment in one way or another.
If someone wants to learn the not-so metaphysical truly inner kool aid or kool aiding not so deeply foot grounded “feeling”... just change Martial Arts concepts explained at this interview into whatever subject you want to understand, where wisdom isn’t just knowledge.
The part about being mechanic or beastie and finding the right spot when Bruce talks like my introduction (around minute 6:00) seems useful for this discussion, almost into my eyes...
I actually agree that time spent on one skill is beneficial to the other, as there is undoubtedly areas of overlap. All I’m saying is that if you have two stacks of pancakes, the tallest one is the one with the most pancakes.
What a lovely portrait!
Finding the sweet spot between intuition, personality and mechanics is just as relevant in playing an instrument.
And honestly expressing oneself instead of playing someone else's role might be one of the main challenges in music composition.
Thank you very much for hinting at this video!
@rs2000 as usual, glad to be helpful...
Ever go to a jazz concert? It's typical to see a bandleader hand out sheet music to the players - music they've never seen/played before. Then the players sight-read and play the music, then take turns improvising... thus utilizing both skills. I doubt that any of us will be able to detect a significant difference in height between these "pancake stacks" you speak of, upon examination of any of the players.
Thank you indeed!
I have also seen reports from others, on a guitar-oriented forum, that for them, improvisation comes out of the subconscious. They generally report practicing various things like bebop lines/licks with the intention of drilling them into the subconscious. They have backed up their claims by posting videos/tracks of themselves improvising.
Improvisation seems like playing basketball. In basketball, there is so much going on around you at the same time, that your brain cannot afford to waste CPU cycles on conscious thought, otherwise an opponent can steal the ball from you, intercept a pass to your teammate, etc. while you're standing there thinking (consciously) about what to do. Anyway, the role of the subsconscious vs. the conscious in elite level sports has been well-researched and documented - should be easy out to find articles via Google or the like.
One person on that guitar forum that I respect a lot is a longtime educator who has seen hundreds of student go through his class over the years. He dislikes self-promotion but somebody got a hold of a couple of videos of him playing and I can report that his skills are a high enough level that anything he says is worth considering. Anyway, he recently said that there is much to be gained studying relationships between notes, properties of scales, etc. independently from one's instrument. He also had this to say:
Oh and this same person reported this in another thread:
For many years I toured with Don Preston (ex-Mothers of Invention, Gil Evans, Carla Bley, etc....) and when I asked Don about this, he said: "I try to tap into a subconscious part of the mind that's infinitely more intelligent than the conscious mind and then not **** it up"
I've never been particularly good at improvisation, but over time I've come to realize these guys (and some gals?) were speaking the truth, not BSing at all. So lately I've focused more on practice/training approaches that work well with the subconscious instead of fighting it.
If that's the case, wouldn't listening to great music help shaping that subconscious reactor just as much?
I (personally) think the subconscious development is the finishing phase of an improvisers development. Where you can formulate a music thought that is provided by your hands/fingers/feet.
The go off and think about music and suddenly play only works in the "Music Man" to create a happy ending.
Connie made the @LinearLineman drill exercises with his hands so that he could deliver on his
thoughts and produce music from his subconscious. Many musicians hit a wall and can't break through and these approaches to connecting to the subscious help at that stage. But going from a melody to something you can pre-hear and realize seems like wish fulfillment. You have to do the work to create th connections.
Serious jazz improvisers with few exceptions transcribe solos to help then build their musical vocabulary.
I'm not sure of Connie recommended that because she seemed to want you to invent your musical self without influence and strive to be unique.
You can sit at a keyboard and just let your mind suggest gestures and notes will occur. But nothing I've ever heard the @LinearLineman play seems to have anything close to randomness. There's intention, structure and design that spans large blocks of music. That takes years of connections developed in the mind through repetition. I think he wants to share and celebrate the moment of zen when he dropped the analytical mind and just let it flow from his subconscious.
There are many Jazz courses that promise to help show the short cut to "jazz" but the reality (for me) is it's a monastic discipline followed by those that seek to achieve a higher state of creativity. Most that I've seen interviewed mention years of study, practice and mental development. Many still consider their efforts to be ongoing without end.
Who is the greatest living improviser in your estimation? I'd go with James Carter, tenor/soprano sax, of Detroit for my vote. He came through town to play for a Quincy Jones performance and walked into the local Hyatt and sat in and played for hours before and after the real job. In the afternoon there were 10 people in the room and after the concert the Hyatt was SRO wince the audience and locals knew the musicians would be at the Hyatt. He played with the same intensity and commitment for both instances.
Insane technical skills and a creative mind. Q always hired the best.
I will like to point the fact that subconscious mind connects with rational mind and higher Self through white noise... that’s why natural sounds can relax people. So I will recommend (and start trying by myself) studying with low volume white noise (like vinyl crackling/hum) in the background.
There are even more esoteric tools to load code into our own mind (or better said a way to prepare our little self to get/mine the higher Self data and makes studying less painfully) but those are the things I don’t want to share publicly (as I pointed in the other topic) due that knowledge could make unconfortable (or laugh if you prefer) to rational/skeptical people and I don’t want to discuss about it or prove things that, tried empirically, prove themselves but require some faith (almost in the possibility of being possible).
It’s impossible to not get mystical, please excuse me if that’s a problem from someone reading this. I didn’t make the rules, I’m just a finger pointing to the moon...
Bonus.
The next video was in the original footage for Enter the Dragon movie but due premature Bruce’s death and complexity of the wisdom inherent, it was cut alongside another scene when he is inside the mirror chamber. It’s also related to this discussion from the point of higher Self involvement in mastering an skill but also about how to play properly with emotional content and others. We can say it’s the deeper explanation to Lao’s lesson (the video with the young boy) and in fact it was the next scene in the movie if I remember well (25 years commemorative dvd edition is full without cuts) and also a gift to anyone enough sensitive to feel what’s talking about. Enjoy.
@McD
When I suggested listening, I was only hinting at the subconscious part of the story, not the mechanical part of course. There is no arguing that without sitting in front of the keyboard and practicing, you won't go far. And yes, choosing what you practice will have much influence as well, but I believe that listening to wisely selected music when you cannot practice would make quite a difference.
One of my favorite living improvisers (but really just one of each!) is Cory Henry for solo impro and Jacob Collier for chords impro.
Agreed. Also check my last comment I feel it will be useful to you.
Let me add Marco Parisi to that two lovely human kinds you pointed...
Good choices! There's a great video on YouTube of them playing together. I find it interesting that Jacob Collier loves to do arrangements of existing songs. Tying this back to the OP... he takes something you probably know and makes a version unlike any you've ever heard before. If there wasn't this framework in your head for the choices being made it might not have the same sense of discovery for the listener.
Maybe Lennie's teaching was similar in that respect to give some structure to what could otherwise be totally formless for the listener's experience.
I think the @LinearLineman's forms come out of his ability to generate logical voice leading between chords and effective counterpoint between his hands. I generally don't hear anything like a repeated melodic idea so I think he used the exercise to free his thinking and is years beyond these ideas just following his internal voice for guidance. It must be a great skill to have developed to break free from
not knowing what to play to having to decide to stop playing after a time.
I am not suggesting that focusing on improvising is a substitute method for practice and learning to gain playing skill. They must evolve in tandem. However, I do believe players can have a lot more fun improvising and stretch out more with the simple principles and practices of Connie’s melody exercise.
So many players think improvising is a foreign land. Well, not to children under five, who delight in pounding the keys as much as producing their own waste products. Many under fivers are very subtle with their playing, but everything and anything is possible. Adults are, fortunately and unfortunately, too ear sophisticated with their musical expectation. You got to pare it down to the basics. A single note... two notes together, and find pleasure in that. Then the chains have broken.
I tried like the devil to improvise until age 25. It always broke down (mainly from my internal judging of the playing as it was happening... good or bad... which broke any kind of connection to the source). Connie showed me simple ways to evolve past that. I think I did have a predilection for melody. I saw every thing as melody, even an ultra slow C scale. I loved to put feeling in those rote notes and hear them as something more than muscle memory development.
I agree with @TheDubbyLabby, it is more than just a subconscious connection. There is something deeper. But for the sake of nonargument “subconscious” will suffice, tho maybe “metaconscious” might satisfy all comers.
Interesting conversation. As a brass player I tried for years to do the Aebersold method but it never felt right - too formulaic. Perhaps as a foundation for learning scales, chords etc but even then.....
The ‘state’ I’m trying to achieve now in my improv is to play what I’m singing in my head so the above advice about using the voice and the ear is pertinent. I’m also reading a book that mirrors a lot of what’s been said above - “It’s about Music” by Jean-Michel Pilc. Worth a look.
I'm not sure what you mean by "reactor".
I don't know of a single great jazz improviser who has not listened to lots of jazz.
All the great country players have listened to lots of country music.
Don't know of a great Persian classical improviser who hasn't listened to Persian classical music.
@TheDubbyLabby the Bruce Lee clip reminds me of what I've heard about Buddhism, or at least the thought espoused by certain Buddhist sects - the idea that there should be no "I".
In my brief dabbling with martial arts, I was usually submitted easily in BJJ/Judo and thrown easily in Judo and Sumo-derived practices because I could never get past thinking consciously about what to do. The conscious mind is just too slow for improvised activity, whether it's sparring in martial arts, playing basketball, or musical improvisation.
I said I was going to apply this training method to "Maiden Voyage" so here's my "before" video. It's as bad as one would expect - too much conscious mind in control, only a bit of subconscious action. After the 3 weeks, I'll record another video.
I also said I'd try it with "Donna Lee". I changed my mind. I just can't improvise on that melody at the speed that it's typically played at (220 bpm or more) . The method is supposed to improve existing improvisational ability from what I understand - it's not a zero to something method.
@GovernorSilver, the video kicked out after around thirty seconds, but it is probably me. The iOS gremlins have got me today. Nothing working right. I admire your before and after daring. Good luck! I hope you will get a good result. Btw, that may not be the easiest tune to work with. If it is frustrating, switch to something else.
Life Is, so thinking about what Is only could be a projection of our little self into future (what little self wants or expect) or an echo from the past in some pattern form trying to replicate known into which is by definition livingly new.
The only path to life is living just in where life happens, the now.
Mastering any life art requires presence so that little self only could help if remains silent and just observe peacefully until life hits by itself shaping formless void into art. Whatever you try to achieve... in the end is done when you stop trying and just start (or continue) being...
This great. I was hoping someone would take the journey and share the experience.
I remember the Jamey Abersold methods started with this modal tune before going the ii-V-I standards
period and culmination in Charlie Parker Bebop like Donna Lee.
In your current state of playing can you sing along or are you (like me) running scales with the occasional
intervalic jump. I can match the scales and sing along most of the time but I get the intervals wrong and often sing something close but "no cigar".
I've drilled the 5 pentatonic boxes to the point where I play them unconsciously but I can tell I have licks
ingrained and repeat myself a lot in that style of scale playing.
I could see he benefit of singing a line and testing to see if your hands can echo the right notes. Especially intervalic lines that don't run the scale but follow chordal lines or quartal patterns.
I hope more will join the thread and share their progress and insights for what opens new doors to the meta-conscious that the @LinearLineman inhabits in his excellent improvisational mind flow. There's room on this forum for sub-genres of music creativity.
Thank you gentlefolk for your kind comments.
I am indeed inspired by great scat singers like Ella Fitzgerald - such great lines; creativity, feel, dynamics - the total package.
I'm currently in a half-way state.
On the one hand I'm getting better at chaining intervals into melodic lines - which is an approach that works well with the singer's mentality. "Maiden Voyage" just invites perfect 4ths, 5ths and 9ths to come out. Lines that incorporate the perfect 4th were more difficult for me to execute until I worked on using both the ring and pinky fingers instead of just rolling the pinky on the fret to mute one string and unmute the other. I got that from a Tim Miller course on TrueFire, but apparently Chuck Wayne also taught this.
On the other hand, I have a persistent habit of inserting scalar runs from the time I put in practicing scale patterns from the Fretboard Logic (CAGED) book and the 3-note/string patterns I practiced when I tried to sweep like Frank Gambale.
I still have some work to do as far accurately matching the interval I hear in my head to the physically played interval on the guitar. One practice has helped me lately is practicing major triads through the circle of 5ths (C Major, F Major, Bb Major, etc.) on one string at a time, which I got from Frank Vignola. First, practicing by starting at the root of the triad... then practicing by starting at the lowest note of the triad that you can find on the string, which forces you go through one inversion of the triad - by going through all the strings, you'll eventually hit all the inversions. I think this Vignola exercise is a great example of one that works hand in hand with the "meta-conscious" instead of fighting it, because the focus is on hearing the note relationships instead of technique for the sake of speed.
I am confident @LinearLineman 's 3-week method will help me get closer to the longer term goal - where during improvisation my conscious mind just quietly observes as a passenger while the meta-conscious, which is the superior multi-tasker, memory storage retreiver, etc. is in the driver's seat.
This is the closest - relatively speaking - that I've come to demoting the conscious mind to the passenger seat - this was recorded for a Jazz-Blues in Bb Major playalong thread. I didn't bother practicing licks/lines specifically for this - no Bb blues scale patterns, no arpeggio exercises or anything. I had focused my practice a lot more on "Isn't She Lovely" (different playalong thread) - for that I practiced the melody, Stevie's harmonica solo, and some lines that I made up inspired by the harmonica solo. I'll spare you guys that one. After recording the "Isn't She Lovely" jam I thought why not do the "Jazz-Blues in Bb Major" too - screw it, it'll be good laugh:
Anyway, I would also encourage others to join and share progress - whether you play keys, Geoshred, whatever.
Slightly OT but on a related note, there's a rumor going around that Tony Williams had argued against George Coleman being included on the Maiden Voyage recording sessions, because Coleman - allegedly - composed all his solos in advance and practiced them to perfection before going into the studio to record. Williams favored players who were more willing to take chances and put themselves on the line. But I'm sure he got overrulled because it was Herbie's project, not his.
I still like stealing ideas from Coleman as well as Freddie Hubbard and Herbie himself for this tune though.