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WHAT'S WRONG WITH WRONG NOTES? MODAL PLAYING!
I would like to hear forum members' observations on modal playing. Advantages, disadvantages. Strengths, shortcomings. Limitations, liberations.
Reasons for its popularity and place in the musical scheme of things. And anything I have missed asking about.
Ok, so no controversy, no response! So a little title edit. And I did not want my opinions to drive this thread, but...
As an old guy I look at technology from the great things it does and also the not so great. In my day it was pretty tough to make anything that sounded like real music. Today, it seems, anyone can do it. And a big part of the reason is: Modal Music. Why: No wrong notes! Modal music has an esteemed place in music making. I use it, sometimes, but in a chromatic context. As a jazz player I can lose it if I want to. But for all the benefits of modal play something great is lost. And that is risk. It is the equivalent of no pain no gain. No risk no chance of doing something truly unexpected melodically. That, IMO is the deficiency of modal playing.
Plus, a whole generation of kids will grow into adults playing modal music ( and blues and eastern scales) and maybe never grow into the chromatic scale, much less micro turnings. And they will think that instant music, instant photography, instant cinema, and instant art are simply the result of a few button presses and why shouldn't all of life be like that? Well, it wasn't when I was a kid. Everything was difficult. So art imitated life. But today Art does not imitate Life. Technology driven art tends to fake life with gadgetry. Smoke and mirrors if you must. And great fun for all! But isn't there a price?
I know I will take some hits for this. Let me preempt some. It is great for people to discover music making without years of misery to get there. Some people on this forum are masters of the modal form and their music is creative, sometimes boundary breaking and a joy to listen to. Ambient music is another category altogether, easier to make, perhaps, but difficult to make something that stands out from the crowd. And there are masters of that form here as well, I love modal music. I just want to hear how other minds perceive its place in the scheme of things.
Comments
I’ve studied music, music technology and technology pretty damn deeply. Played jazz (and trad., and contemporary music..) professionally as a bassist, studied music up to MA level and been deeply involved in technology throughout.
I’m actually giving a talk on music performance with programming languages next month:
https://www.meetup.com/haskell-dublin-meetup/events/252468400/
(I’ll make it available online)
I’m more interested in the larger cultural question that you touch on than options on the specifics of ethno-chrono-genre-centric pitch choice preference, so I’ll answer from a slightly abstracted viewpoint.
Opinion:
Expression is a much about the receiver as the creator. If you can’t ‘speak’ with your audience, how can you allow them the richest possible scope for interpretation? If your art comes pre-defined by cliche (stylistic or contextual, old or new), then it’s not really that expressive, is it?
Tools will change, dialogue will change, communication pathways will change, human creativity will remain unchanged. If you feel that creativity is missing — work harder as an observer and then speak the language back — it’s a dialogue and nothing beside human nature remains stationary.
/Opinion
I'll throw my hat in here as I see a couple things I'd like to address.
Technology is a tool, as any instrument is a tool. Fads will come and go as styles will change over time. This is also true of how people approach music both from a physical (instrument/technology) and a mental (music theory) standpoint.
I am of the belief that the process is less important than the output. What that means is simply this:
IF IT SOUNDS GOOD, IT'S GOOD MUSIC
As someone who's been both a professional and amateur musician/engineer/producer for over 20 years, it's easy to say that THIS WAY is better than THAT WAY or that THIS INSTRUMENT is better than THAT INSTRUMENT or THIS MIC is better than THAT MIC and so on and so forth. For instance - in the 80's I was watching instructional videos for bass. You know - the kind that they sold in the music stores to teach you the techniques of the famous players. At the time, there was the argument that "No great player ever got their chops from watching videos" but look at where we are now with YouTube and internet lessons and the like - you can't make that claim any more. It's less about the vehicle for the music and should be about the music itself.
So, to get to the music theory and improvisational thing: the same can be said about improvising. Are there any truly "wrong" notes? NO - you're only ever a half-step away from something consonant at most, and frankly no matter what note you land on, if you're well versed enough in music theory you can justify anything. So as long as you play with strength and confidence, you can sell most anything to the untrained ear. This just opens up the world of notes to play for any musician. That being said, it doesn't invalidate the dude who just wants to play blues licks all night either.
The only value to any of this is where you decide to place it. If it's important for you to entertain yourself, then you can play anything your own ears will enjoy. If you want to connect with others, then you have to accept that you'll be having to play what others want to hear, and that may not be what you want to create.
Part of the issue I see with a fair amount of jazz is that it's inaccessible to your average listener. I admire that jazz is unapologetic in this way, but at the same time it's not always something that is within the average person's listening lexicon. Outside notes sound outside because dissonance isn't as common in "radio" music as consonance is. Listening to these notes in this order isn't common, so it can be alienating. That doesn't make jazz BAD, but like most sophisticated things it can be an acquired taste.
I find it hard when I'm improvising to "hear" the outside notes, so I tend to play very consonant solos. It's just where my ear and my muse take me, but that doesn't mean I can't go off the rails too - I just have to take a different approach than most. I can't remember the whole "use this scale over this chord, then you can reharmonize with this scale and mode over these changes..." - it's WAY too much to think about in the heat of the moment, when the stage lights are on and the cymbals are crashing and the guitar is screeching and the singer is wailing.....
My point is simply this: there are MANY different ways of playing and enjoying music and all of them are valid. Times change, and we'll get back to more challenging music in the public eye at some point. Modal playing will make it's resurgence somewhere down the road - we just have to be patient and open to whatever the NEXT thing is.
"The Modes" as we commonly know them are all the same scale with a different root emphasis.
So its a really limited thing in my perspective, and makes me ill whenever the options for scales in Daws are just the 7 basic modes of the "diatonic/major" scale, and the usual tag-a-longs Pentatonic, Harmonic Minor, Blues, etc..
The problem is how harmony has been categorized and institutionalized in the educational system from the universities on down.
It's all based on trying to explain CPP music and does a poor job at that, while having to offer all types of shims for "breaking the rules" in order to help explain away early 20th-century composers and that oh so difficult and troublesome art form known as jazz.
The reality is, anyone using drum pads for harmony, say on the push, are likely not into "theory" and usually fool around until they play something they like, regardless of any "rules".
And I think that's why that music is being the most rewarded today, as compared to any music relying on traditional instruments.
Its really starting to get into a traditional instrument that all of a sudden creates this pull towards "traditional theory" and a bunch of dry and boring results, unless they find some route outside of current music education systems.
I think this is an excellent thread with comments far exceeding my pay scale. I agree that if it sounds good, it is good music to an extent. But to whom.? As I grew older I began to appreciate modern jazz far more than in my youth. When our group had its one and only hit we thought it was good but no one bought our follow up record. Technically, we played the three chords in the right order and professionally (no mistakes) but you cannot say it is good music just because you play all the right notes.
I think jazz is an excellent example as is art and writing. The onus is on the player, composer, author or artist to go beyond the safe boundaries to educate the receiver to appreciate the finer points. Nothing will develop ever unless you are prepared to experiment. As a listener I may not like the result always as it will be outside my safety zone but as an artist you surely need to experiment for your own motivation. Or I will be still playing the same three chords in E until I die !
I should also add:
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Not withstanding.
Well, this is a lot better! I hope more will offer their opinions
@oscarsouth. Wow, so good to hear from someone so deeply involved in all aspects of music. Could you write more about the "larger cultural question" you speak of? That really piques my interest.
I don't think I am in danger of getting a stale "observer's" ear. I am new to iOS, turned 70 yesterday and am selling my Steinway B in favor of using this wonderful technology for my next (and probably last!) chapter of music making. At present I am living in Istanbul and exploring the fusion of jazz, middle eastern rhythms and synthesized sound. Ethno chrono genre centric....
Hmmm does the centric apply to the genre?Then it might mean generation or age related interests in specific cultural genres and their tonal leanings? As In US teenagers love a wailing, pitch bending acid guitar?or Australian Aboriginal adult males dig the low vibrations and circular breathing of the digereedo?
But maybe no.... Please explain.
@Daveypoo , of course you are right on about what you say. But the wrong note thing is about not even having the opportunity to hit something "jarring" or unfamiliar while playing a modal scale. It won't let you because the notes for those sounds do not exist in the scale. Correct me if I am wrong. In order to be a master of modal music I am guessing you need to focus on different aspects of what makes the music sound great than if you were playing jazz. But just what is it? It is not the expressiveness of the player and the instrument, that is common to all but the most computer generated music. It is not the wayoutness of the melody, as I don't think you can get way out melodically in modal playing. So what is it that makes an average modal player different from a great one? Both will probably generate music that " sounds" good.
@AppleHorizon, you bring up the educational system. Dry and boring just about says it all. Music has, unfortunately, been sidelined to more "important" subjects. But I would like to hear a little deeper explanation to really understand what you are driving at. You say modal music is limited, but I have to answer in whose hands is it limited? On another thread, Magic Three there is a discussion of creating interesting, or expressive music with only three or four notes. One poster said Beethoven did it with two. I pointed out Ligeti's imaginative piece that starts with one note, then two, all the way up to eleven. As Daveypoo said, it is not the method but the madness ( so to speak).
Anyway, this at least demonstrates that hooks are not just limited to songs. They work good in discussion titles, too!
Keep it coming, guys!
@u0421793 . Notwithstanding randomly generated music, of course. However, I am happy to inform you that I read your missive backwards and Paul is not dead. A relief to some and a burden to others,
Did you improvise that or is there an App for it? If App does it have AU.
Seriously.
Modes in jazz broke the tyranny of the circle of fifths. It created a huge change in the way the listener predicts where the music is headed.
Even better than modes now are the more exotic scales of the middle east and asia that aren't just the same 7 notes with different roots.
Then there's microtonal approaches. If you haven't got the free "Wilsonic" App that has
dozens of unusual scales and microtonal pitch systems with more than our western 12 note chromatic scale.
And finally, there's unstructured sound... Noise.
By the way, the developer of Wilsonic has taken on the project lead role for AudioKit Synth One. Check out the "scales" in Wilsonic and consider the "wrong" notes AKSO will likely be able to conjure in a future release. You've never heard wrong like that before and its going to be under your control.
Unseriously.
where playing any note would be wrong. The audience has to play along too.
Modal playing, if we are talking about 7 modes of a diatonic, is a box or frame in itself, just as much as if someone makes their lines out of different combinations of the standard pentatonic.
Yeah, they can be pasted together in interesting ways but there are other logical frames, as there are many more unique scales.
But I like playing with those concepts, too. I really enjoy droning the low E on my guitar and rifling through modes with E as Root. Its a good practice for keeping my fingers going I think and its like a cool trick to get those vibes.
I nearly put my friend's Dad to sleep while improvising some E Lydian last week he was in such a state of peace from it.
That said, I'm very conscious/aware of it being a logical frame.
I'd love to hear that E Lydian Improv on SoundCloud and the various modes over the E Pedal to hear how you practice that too. Always looking for inspiration...
Funny you should put these thoughts out to the world.
I totally dislike modal playing yet often find myself reaching for them often ending in frustration. In particular I often try and use scales/modes on notation circuit and end up reverting to chromatic because I cannot find all of the notes I’ve intended to play.
So yes, they’re great for noodling but often fall on their face when prescribed playing is happening or there’s a few chord changes in the phrase.
I’m actually not too worried about this personally. I’ve just been and played a festival where Ipad would be considered mainly a device for browsing the internet. Masses of extremely talented young musicians engaged in making original music on traditional (non modal) instruments.
One good thing that came of all this ease of play is that many people that would just give up from the word go succeed at making music and finding their way of expressing themselves. If making music is therapy in itself then surely the ability to make satisfying music without the need for hours of practice must surely account for something.
I don’t think the two are exclusive to each other in any way. There will always be a drive to play trad instruments with all of the notes (right and wrong) included as well as the apps like ThumbJam or nodebeat.
...and I’d certainly miss those situations when the phrase with the wrong note has to be repeated at least twice to cover up the original mistake as if it was actually intended.
...and what are your thoughts on instruments such as hang drum or even harmonica?
Discussions on music always seem like a paradox to me. > @McDtracy said:
What exactly do you mean by 'Modes in jazz broke the tyranny of the circle of fifths'?
Well, I am so interested in ios junk that I forced my wife, who is totally non musically inclined (don't even ask!) to make some music with Thumbjam. So I showed her how, set up an Arabic scale (we live in Turkey) I put some Mideast Drummer in the background and voila!
I think part of it is how you define "modal" playing. I view it as a small part of improvising in a jazz context, but I also include reharmonization with it. You can take modal playing "outside" by playing off extended musical theory ideas such as the V of V (5 of 5), extended harmonies with the 9, 11, 13 & altered tones, and pivoting from shared chordal tones to those outside the current key. While these may not be strictly modal in nature, to me they are all related and part of the greater idea of jazz improvisation. I personally wouldn't ONLY use modality when improvising specifically as it's just as limited as any other single technique.
That being said, of course the only way to break out of the 12 standard tones of Western music is to go micro-tonal and I'm not sure that many are ready for that in the West - I know I'm not there yet myself. I don't have the ear that can hear microtones so things just sound out of tune to me. That's not a "wrong" sound that's pleasant to me in the same way that a dissonant note in a jazz improvised solo would be.
Anyway, just my old opinion, hope it gives you something to chew on.
I'm not sure what point you are making here it seems like a paradox?
@[Deleted User] I'm just giving an example of the ease with which one can make modal music. Even the nonmusically inclined. Please understand, I do not have a particular hard set point of view. I just am curious what people have to say about it because it seems to be part of the iOS landscape. I haven't seen it discussed and I like different aspects of music making on all levels. And I like hearing the regulars and newcomers contribute
In a quasi philosophical discussion. As you and I spoke in a different thread. This forum will support just about anyone's interests, including mine.
OK no probs :-) it was just the wording you used ' ios junk' and 'non musically inclined' threw me off a bit when talking about playing a scale.
Pretty audacious allegation. Especially considering that music based on "blues and eastern scales" is all about microtuning. When you're tuned in to intonation, a simple portamento from C to Bb contains more musical worlds than any of us could explore in one lifetime. The problem for you is keyboard controllers, not modes.
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr . Actually I don't think I have a problem with keyboards. I am far from expressing all that is possible with a non mpe instrument. And being 70 there ain't a lot of time to to get to it all. And I don't have a problem with modal playing, either. I do it myself often. I just want to know what musicians young and old are thinking about the music they make. Those who are thinking about it. Not a requirement, of course.
.
An audacious allegation to be sure. Not many are likely to learn the true art of photography either. Not when you take fifty pictures and happen to get a good one, if you have even developed the eye to recognize it. Modernity always has its pluses and minuses don't you think?
I spent forty years working with jazz harmony.. I've only been singing ragas for about fourteen months, but it has totally changed my world view. I now see harmony as beautiful but unnecessary. The notes between the notes are where the action is. Notes on a page are like connect-the-dots drawings, where how you connect the dots is what makes it into art. But keyboards can only play the dots, and at best can only imply the lines.
All the Turkish music around you--too cool! Here's hoping you're taking advantage and diving into that stuff.
It's so strange @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr. I have always loved that there was no harmony in Indian music. But doesn't it always come down to all music is acceptable to the right ears.
To boil the work of geniuses like Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin into a bunch of limited patzers connecting dots and only implying lines! I would say that is a pretty audacious allegation! 😂😇 We are friends, are we not!
The Charlie Parker era of BeBop used chord progressions that tended to follow around the circle of fifths to the landing tonic root chord. All these young players idolized the dexterity that Parker ("Bird") displayed and drilled scales and patterns against these classic "Cherokee Changes". This type of virtuosic jazz playing is the hallmark of academic jazz students.
Miles Davis cam along with a dislike for solo'ing using scales. He ushered in a "Cool Era" that emphasized playing carefully chosen interval based solo'ing over chords that tended to slide up and down modal paths like D minor - E minor - F maj 7 - E minor - D minor. This type of playing focuses on not playing a lot of notes but using the right chord elements to evoke a feeling.
That's the historic paradigm shift I was referring to with "Modes in jazz broke the tyranny of the circle of fifths". It freed a lot of players up to avoid scales and learn to craft a solo using other musical techniques like "motifs". Take a Miles solo apart and you'll see he typically had a small 2-3 note idea that got re-worked through out the solo.
You have it completely backwards. Bebop improvisation is based on chords; modal jazz improvisation is based on scales.
I love harmony and I love those composers. I think I was reacting to your provocative argument that chromaticism is an antidote to boring modal music. It is one antidote, but not the only one. Exploring the space between the modal dots is another. Good blues players do this routinely.
Great discussion!
Wow. Well said @dawdles. Try to keep it less personal.
Moar teh personalz
@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr But I never said I didn't like modal music. I am just talking about how it seems to limit one's choices. But you make a very good point. I hadn't considered the deeper microtonal aspect. I was just thinking of the keyboard style implementation on most iOS apps.
I guess that is a really watered down version of true modal/ microtonal music.
I put up this post with just the first paragraph, but no one seemed interested. So I stirred the pot a little.