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To amp model, or not to amp model. That is the question:
Slightly OT. I’m contemplating purchasing the Fractal Audio FX8 for recording guitar into AUM, Auria or Cubasis through my iConnectAudio4 interface. The FX8 does not have amp modeling like Fractals AX8 model, which is a bit more expensive. My question is, will the resulting sound/recording end up being thin without putting it through an amp? If so, can I overcome this by running it through Bias Amp or Tonestack. Will I at least get close to a nice tone that I’d get with a good amp (which I don’t own)? I guess my final question would be, if this is overkill. Should I just forget about buying an FX8 because I could pretty much get the same sounds using the Apps I already own (you name it, I got it)?
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Here is the deal.. in my own experience with this. If you have decent amp sim and some good impulse response for cabinets, in a mix it’s so hard to tell. Even though I can’t play guitar anymore due to health I would never buy any hardware again, unless it’s a good interface. Save your money imho.
Funny, my hands are ruined so I can’t play anymore either.
Let’s just call ourselves Guitarist Emeritus. That sounds better than health issues. I use it all the time
Regarding amp simulation. I’ve been a Line 6 use for years, but nothing, and I mean nothing, beats my good old twin bulb Marshall amp, without any effects other than a plugged in guitar cable.
I’ve never tried iOS simulation though... perhaps it’s better than harware simulation.
I haven't played through an FX8, so anything I say here is purely speculation. Having said that...
I feel fairly confident playing the guitar through the FX8 then directly into a DAW (i.e., without going through an amp modeler) won't sound all that great, especially if you're using overdriven tones. You'd be much better off going through BIAS, ToneStack, or any of the other popular iOS modeling apps. If you use Auria, you could try the FabFilter Saturn plugin for some gain / warmth / saturation.
If you already own so many iOS effect apps, why are you considering the FX8 route?
Thanks!
You’re probably right. Sometimes I feel I’m searching for that perfect sound while I think the reality is that I’m probably just looking for something that will compensate for my limited abilities
. Thanks!
That is part of guitar players’ DNA. Combine that with Gear Acquisition Syndrome and it’s hopeless.
Nothing comes close to a good tube amp--for the player. For the listener, in a mix, you can't hear a significant difference between a well-dialed Tonestack sim and the real thing.
That together with my App Acquisition Syndrome and it really is hopeless!
This for sure. 👊😁
yes, it's an urban legend... and will never die
The most famous bass tube amp (Ampeg SVT) derives it's main distortion character from a semiconductor diode clipper and an inductive midrange filter... add an 8x10 fridge cabinet and drive it close the chassis limits... and you get THAT 'tube sound'.
In a blind test with a bunch of tube and transistor amps (all unknown to me) I picked a Rath transistor amp for my favourite 'tube sound'.
(I've had tubeamps myself and started on tube radios as a schoolboy)
When transistors became available the German broadcast industry simply converted the design of their (famous) V76 tube preamp into a transistor version. Almost impossible to tell the difference. It's all about circuit design.
Not to forget sales psychology: a 'tube' is supposed an individual part and not an automated mass product like a transistor, let alone a piece of software.
The only thing that really makes a difference is the cabinet playing on stage or in your room. It's the physical transmitter that interacts with both the instrument and the player.
Disagree. There is sag in tube amps which the player can easily feel and respond to. It can be modeled, but the early solid state amps did not.
But here is the main point. Who is going to be the audience for listening to this. 98% of YouTube or SoundCloud will never ever be able to tell the difference. 😁
Sag in tube amps is a design flaw of the powersupply that became a feature.
It's not related to tubes. Today you can regulate power into whatever direction you need - or rather alter amp characteristics according to momentary power consumption.
Btw not every player is permanently using the gain dial's 11 position.
My absolute top favorite bass amp is a $79 Dynelectro practice amp. I look like an idiot playing it. I’ve probably 50 times to convince myself this isn’t “the one” but every time I plug it in I get that stupid tone nirvana grin. Even without the cab, straight out the RCA (!) or headphone jack into a DAW is sweet perfection.
Guitar - still chasing the unicorn.
The iOS guitar apps are plenty good for recording. If you’ve ever recorded in studio control room with the amp mic’d in another room, it’s pretty much the same experience as playing with a sim.
For playing live, and practicing loud, there’s just no substitute for my Marshall. For recording and exploring different tones for songs and riffs, it’s hard to beat the ease and sounds of AmpliTube, Bias, ToneStack, etc.
I don’t know about the unit you’re considering, but it seems like overkill to me. It seems you could get yourself a nice amp for the money you’d spend on that thing.
My musician friends still find it hard to believe that I recorded my album without real amplifiers.
Yeah, I’m definitely leaning towards saving my money. Unfortunately I happen to live in a adult community where I built a studio in the garage. It’s not really soundproof enough to be jamming away on an amp. I’m pretty much constrained to headphone usage.
Thanks for your feedback!
Having an amp means you can get some people together and jam!
I have a Fender Mustang amp that I can kind of get by for that.
@Philh0954 “kind of get by” isn’t quite a Deluxe Reverb turned up to about 6 with a Tube Screamer in front of it.
I know you’re looking for functionality and practicality, but...
Sorry, I’ll shut up now.
The AX-8 is a (very) high quality fx unit, but I doubt it will add much to an IOS setup.
Just like IOS it features a rather 'clean' tone.
If you don't need a mobile setup, you may consider an old powermac G4 (the grey Sawtooth model or Quicksilver) with a small Pro Tools TDM rig.
It's easy to setup and extremely cheap ($200 for a full system).
I run such a thing connected via an iCA4+ for additional sound color - it's very different.
Mainly the Eventide algorithms by Wavemechanic (Time/Pitchfactory), Lexiverb, Realverb, some TC-EQ, Drawmer Dynamics, Line 6 Delay Factory (which is the exact same as their green pedal), BombFactory's 1176 and LA2A compressor/limiter classics.
(they must have been mad about that factory name part back then)
You may ignore Pro Tools DAW functions and just configure it as a realtime fx unit - much easier and versatile than any 19" unit.
You’re right about that. I had a Twin until I sold it when I moved into my new digs. It was just too much amp. It least that’s what I told myself. It just got added to my “regrets in life”.
Thanks for the great info!
My opinion that software amp sims cant emulate heavy distortion all that well, especially tube distortion. You get better results from your guitar using an amp sim if you use some guitar distortion/overdrive pedal before you input to emulation, then use clean or cleanish(slight crunch can sound good) amp sim. For clean and cleanish sounds amp sim can sound more than good enough on its own. Its also a good idea to pair a proper impulse response for speaker simulation and ofc turn off cab sim on amp simulator app.
My only real beef with the amp sims is that I can't get playable feedback. Is there a trick I don't know about?
@Philh0954: a coupla thoughts:
Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr wrote: "My only real beef with the amp sims is that I can't get playable feedback. Is there a trick I don't know about?"
Feedback is complex interaction between: strings, speaker and room and position. You can get great feedback with amp sims if you have the sound come of speakers so that the sound can interact with your guitar. I'd be cautious of creating feedback with headphones on. I suspect that purely synthesized feedback would not be nearly as satisfying or playable as the real thing.
Anyway that's my .02
In the case of Tonestack, you'd have to play with various combinations of amp and speaker models. It took me maybe an hour or two of messing around with Tonestack to find a jazz guitar tone that didn't make my semi-hollowbody guitar sound thin - in my case it was a 2x15 speaker model that did the trick.
I have a Boss Katana 100 that I bought on sale - it's already a cheap amp at the regular price, but at sale price it was irresistable. Unfortunately, it has the typical Boss/Roland disease as far as IOS is concerned - no class-compliant USB. The Katana's USB interface works great for recording to desktop computer, but if I want to jam or record onboard the iPad, it's just easier to use an app.
That all said, the Katana has become my home practice amp, since it has a 0.5W setting that brings all the levels low enough to not disturb the neighbors. For amp feedback, I don't see how it can be done without involving a speaker (and thus something audible outside of headphones). I know some peeps use an E-Bow, Sustainiac, or other string driver device to get a feedback sound without a speaker.
Thanks for the great feedback (no pun intended). I played around a bunch today and was able to get a pretty good (much better than I had been getting) sound with my Strat by using the headphone out jack of my Fender Mustang 3 amp running into my iCA4+. I seem to get a much better tone that way than miking the amp or using the xlr outputs in back of the amp (into the iCA4+). I then use AUM with various effects (Kosmonaut works great) with a bit of compression and equalization. With the mixture of the built in effects of the Mustang amp and the plethora of apps I have on my iPad, I’m finally getting somewhere. I haven’t even tried it with Tonestack yet. So many options.
@GovernorSilver those katana amps are amazing bang for the buck.i recently picked up the 50w cuz my trusty gigging amp only sounds good at high volume and takes up too much space to be in our living space. Enter the Katana which sounds good at low volume and can be loud enough for jam sessions.
Such a drag that the USB audio is not class
@Philh0954 . Great that you are finding a tone you like. Mic'ing an amp so that it sounds good takes experimentation, a room that sounds good, amp that sounds how you like and the right mic. In live situations, you can often get away with sloppy set-up that doesn't work out when recording because venue acoustics and room noise mask problems.
Not sure how amp sims sound on a signal coming from an amp. I use amp sims on a signal straight from the guitar, fwiw.