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Comments
You're right, the manual isn't clear about soft thru on USB modes 1-4.
I would try sending data to the BCF USB MIDI Out port and attach a MIDI monitor program to the BCF USB MIDI In port, then switch between modes 1..4 in order to find out which mode mirrors your data and which doesn't.
I had the Pocket MIDI monitor app open last night and wasn't seeing any MIDI data out from the BCF's. However, I could see Logic was receiving MIDI out data from the BCF's. And even with Logic closed I get the same results. Also curious... I see the BCF's physical MIDI ports as selectable "ports" in Logic but not the BCF's USB ports?
NOTE: I had actually mistaken "port 1" in my previous setup ( a setup that was working briefly) for the USB port. In fact, it was actually port 1 that I had 'record-enabled' in Logic that allowed for MIDI output. This makes no sense to me though as I have nothing connected to the physical port 1 on either of the BCF's?
Lastly, in the 'Audio MIDI Setup' app I can see my AMT 8 MIDI interfaces in the 'studio layout' with all of the devices and ports available for virtual patching, but neither of the BCF's, nor their ports show up? I'm confused...
Also to note... Last night I realized that in my previous "working" setup from a few nights back I unknowingly still had MIDImittr connected via Bluetooth. MIDImittr's USB mode was connected but I never turned off Bluetooth so it's entirely possible that I never had USB MIDI working.
@rs2000 I have everything working again, although the setup is a bit different now...
Using the MIDI monitor definitely helped me remove a bunch of unnecessary stuff but I still have a ways to go as I'm relying on the MIDI monitor for MIDI Thru.
As you said, I should be able to accomplish the Pocket MIDI and record enabled MIDI tracks routing in Logic's Environment but I'm still confused on exactly how to do that. If I create a "Physical Inputs" object in the Environment am able to see all the input ports but I can't figure out how to access the output ports? Or how to enable MIDI Thru?
Update:
So I did some actual playing with the iOS/Quantum/MIDImittr/OSX/Logic/Pocket MIDI setup I've been working on and came to the conclusion that MIDI clock sync is just not going to cut it for my needs. I was seeing drift of up to 10 bpm in just one measure at just 60 bpm and up to 30 bpm drift at 120 bpm! Feeling let down by Logic and their inability to adopt Ableton Link I went to the source and downloaded the demo for Live. Using more or less the same set up I had with Logic (except I am now using Link instead of MIDI clock) I am getting much, much better sync (although still not perfect). With Live now supporting 3rd party plugins I should be able to do most of what I was planning to accomplish with Logic without having to re-buy a bunch of stuff so I may just bite the bullet and give Live a go. To be continued...
Sooo, even after switching to Link from MIDI clock the timing, while much better, is still not very good. And to be clear I'm not talking about lag. The issue I am having is the consistency of the timing. If I set up a 16th note hi-hat pattern it sounds like I have a humanize effect on at about 30%. If I could get it down to something that felt more like 10% or 15% I could probably live with it, but as it is, it just isn't going to work for my purposes. Anyone else finding similar timing issues with Ableton Link and iOS apps? Would something like the E-RM Multiclock allow me to tighten things up?
If MIDI clock is not solid, there must be something really wrong with your setup.
I use it all the time and it's very tight, but I'm using both USB and hardware MIDI from and to other hardware (Digitakt in my case), not to MacOS.
I know that some iOS apps don't send stable MIDI clock because they've just not implemented it right, but I've come down to a choice of apps that do work very well here.
I have no experience with Quantum as a clock source because I don't own it, but have you tried Cubasis (or the free "Link to MIDI" by Alexandernaut or "Metronom - The groovy Speed and Rhythm Trainer" by Thomas Arndt, creator of B-Step) instead?
(Use "Link to MIDI" with LINK enabled but no LINK member connected in order to use it as a clock generator)
Also, if you have any kind of hardware groovebox or sequencer, have you tried to send MIDI clock to it using the iPad connected to a good MIDI interface?
It's essential to isolate the point where the clock starts to jitter around.
Are you saying that the timing is sloppy on a per-note basis? Or just off overall?
Version 1.7 of Quantum introduced a new clock method to avoid the issue of stutters and lag that could happen when switching apps. Unfortunately it introduced a timing issue as Quantum now runs a tiny bit too fast; it rushes forward about 1/16 over the course of 5 minutes. @midiSequencer has implemented a fix, but I believe he is dealing with another bug so the update isn't out just yet.
That said, your description of tempo variations of 10 to 30 bpm with MIDI clock definitely sounds wrong, especially if you're seeing the tempo number jumping around. Both Link and MIDI clock should be much more stable than that.
@rs2000
Ok. Good to hear. I'm definitely overwhelmed with the options that the iOS platform offers in regards to MIDI so I'm pretty sure I'm doing something wrong.
I have not tried either. I am using an app called MIDImittr which I got because I was hoping to avoid using wifi or bluetooth and it allows connection via USB. But I was only trying to avoid wifi and bluetooth because of the timing issues I have been experiencing. If I am doing something wrong the timing issues I'm having may have nothing to do with either wifi or bluetooth.
Before I tried integrating my MacBook I had the iPhone (Quantum) sending MIDI out to two BCF2000's with MIDI Thru going to a Nord Drum 2 and the timing was tight. It wasn't until I connected my iPhone to my computer and DAW that I began getting inconsistent timing issues.
Right. But it becomes difficult because as soon as I connect to the MacBook I add multiple possibilities to the chain:
All of the above need to be set for any of them to work so I'm not sure how to test them individually?
@rs2000
Looking into Link to MIDI I came across this footnote on the apps description page:
"Link to MIDI is only recommended for use with hardware MIDI devices. Connecting to apps is possible, but may lead to a poor user experience due to software challenges in synchronizing to MIDI Clock. Ableton Link fixes this."
Does this mean it is not recommended for use with iOS apps?
@aplourde
The individual notes are not playing tightly to the "grid". Some notes are slightly early, some notes are slightly late and the overall feel is very "sloppy". I also noticed that if I connect an additional monitor the timing gets considerably worse, to the point where notes bottleneck and then play in bunches. Not sure why this would be?
Thanks for pointing that out!
As I mentioned to rs2000 above, I am definitely feeling overwhelmed by all the iOS options/possibilities... Core MIDI, MIDI LE, USB MIDI, MIDI Clock, MIDI Sync, Bluetooth, Network, WiFi, Ableton Link etc. There is a high possibility I have something set wrong, I just don't know enough to know what it is!
Ableton Link (on IOS) is currently the best 'software' solution to midi timing. I believe you are probably reading a manual for Link on pc/mac?
The use of midi clock is very low resolution - 24 clock ticks (= 1 beat) but that clock tick needs to come into coreMidi devices & be picked up in the midi input routines - but the clock tick is embedded in a midi stream with all your other midi data (notes, cc etc).
Ableton link works on the principal of timelines (think song pointer) you can request - then the iOS software acts on quantum (=upbeats) & beats to trigger things - I use it to start things (my audio unit clock keeps everything in sync).
On one IOS device all is good (e.g. Patterning/Quantum etc), but start adding the interfaces (bluetooth, usb devices etc) then yes there is bound to be something not delivering with microprocessor accuracy.
As a general rule - network sessions should be avoided, bluetooth is better, but on device is the best.
btw, Quantum, uniquely I think, allows you to 'play ahead of the Link timeline' - see Options panel & rotary next to Ableton Link button. You can make Quantum run ahead of Link by up to 1 beat. Can't remember if this works though!
@midiSequencer
Not to confuse things more but I was referring specifically to the iOS application called "Link to MIDI". The quote was taken from the "Link to MIDI" apps website. Sorry for the confusion. Regardless, what you say about Ableton Link being the best solution seems to be the consensus. But if this is the case then using an app like "Link to MIDI" which (to quote their website again) says "Link to MIDI connects ABLETON LINK to musical devices that support MIDI Clock Sync" is just opening sync back up to the same timing issues that are inherent to MIDI Clock, no?
Right. I had Quantum plus the two BCF2000's and the Nord Drum 2 all working together nicely so I was hoping I could just have Logic or Live clock to Quantum and everting would be hunky dory. Clearly it's more complicated than that.
This is why I was looking into the e-rm Multiclock as I hoped it might allow me to clock everything from one source directly.
I works I was using it but it wasn't really related to my issues as I am having loose timing not lag.
The frequency of clock ticks has nothing to do with sync precision. In order for tight syncing to work, it's the precision and latency of evaluating midi clock ticks at the receiver side.
I have just tested my suggested setup with Link to MIDI as a clock source (using the internal clock generator) and both Gadget and GR-16 as MIDI clock receivers.
I've also tested the setup
A: using two hardware USB interfaces on the iPads and connecting MIDI out 1 to MIDI in 2
(one iPad with LINK to MIDI as a clock gen and the other with GR-16 and Gadget)
B: With LINK to MIDI and either Gadget or GR-16 on the same iPad (an iPad Mini 2).
I've entered a 16th HiHat pattern in both apps because that's good to hear clock drifts and ran the test with 80 and 120bpm.
In all cases the slave-synced app was super-tight.
So my conclusion is that LINK to MIDI works very well both for sending MIDI clock over a MIDI interface and for sending MIDI clock to another app on the same iPad, and that at least Gadget and GR-16 slave-sync to MIDI clock perfectly.
@morbank: Maybe the USB link is causing the issues?
I see.
Thank you for taking the time to test these setups. I will most definitely try using "Link to MIDI" later tonight and report back...
To be clear, I am able to get tight sync with Quantum on my iPhone connected to a USB hub with the 2 BCF2000 connected and MIDI Thru connected to my Nord Drum 2. It's when I connect to the computer that things get sloppy.
Is "USB link" different than "Ableton Link"?
usb link probably refers to usb device?
Oh yes!
Ableton LINK is a UDP-based network protocol that tries hard to match the "beat grids" of all members of a LINK'ed group of apps, while what you had described earlier was MIDI clock over USB MIDI.
Your setup is a rather advanced one, so I can only guess what could be the issue. The next thing I would try use something else than MidiMittr, you could even use one BCF as an iPad MIDI interface, the second one as a Mac MIDI interface and connect the MIDI out on the first to the MIDI in of the second one, then check if Ableton syncs well.
EDIT: I've just read that you've enabled both LINK and MIDI clock sync in Ableton? In order for it to sync to Midi clock, you disable LINK and enable MIDI clock sync (click on the upper left MIDI symbol in Live). Since Ableton Live also adjusts audio clip playback to incoming MIDI clock, you have to give it some time until it runs in perfect sync, especially after tempo changes. In Live 8 I believe they increased the clock smoothing time which makes the clock very stable even if the incoming clock is quite jittery, but on the other hand it can take a few seconds until Live has caught up with the clock so you'd have to start with a one or two bar empty pattern.
It's a flawed implementation IMHO, they could have added code to avoid the initial ups and downs, but they just haven't done it by now.
What's good is that you can adjust Live's syncing behaviour in Options.txt, see the details linked here: https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?t=221362
In my case, adding the following line changed things dramatically to the better, but you need a good clock source for that:
Add
-MidiClockSlave=g
to Options.txt
For details, see the link above.
@rs2000
My confusion around the term "Link" might well be the source of all my issues!
I had tried disabling "Sync" in Live but I never tried disabling "Link"!
Another potentially critical tidbit, rs2000 you are on fire today! I will test these asap and report back...
Love the summer heat
@rs2000
One more thing I am hung up on that you may be able to help me understand... Concerning OS X's 'Audio MIDI Setup' do I need to "enable" a Network Session to use my MacBook with my iPhone? Or is it possible to sync MIDI clock from OS X to iOS without it?
Depends on how you get MIDI into your Mac.
If you use a "Mac server"-based solution like Midimux/Studiomux or Midimittr, you just select that MIDI port as the SYNC input in Ableton and adjust the latency offset so both devices sound tight together, that's it. The server software usually creates a virtual MIDI port for you. Same for the BCF: Installing the driver (if any, or else just plug it in) should make the port available already.
@rs2000
Yes, I've never needed to use it before. Actually I can't even remember where I read that it needed to be Enabled for my application???
So then what is a situation where you would use/need the Audio MIDI Setup Network Session?
One example is to create a virtual MIDI port for use without any attached hardware.
If you want to route MIDI between different applications on your Mac, you'll usually need this.
@rs2000 @midiSequencer
So I now just have my iPhone connected directly into my MacBook via a Thunderbolt to Lightning cable, no USB hub, no BCF2000's, no Nord Drum 2. Just Quantum and MIDImittr (iOS) are open on my iPhone and I have Live 10 and MIDImittr (OSX) open on my MacBook Pro. With Quantum set to send MIDI Clock and pushing play in Quantum I can see that Live is indeed receiving MIDI but Live's sequencer isn't starting. See settings below...
QUANTUM:
MIDImittr (iOS and OSX):
AUDIO MIDI SETUP:
ABLETON LIVE 10:
So Iam sending MIDI via USB without the Network Session which is nice but as I said, no sync... Any ideas why?
P.S. "EXT" is active in Live as well.
Or...
If I turn off all the MIDI clock settings and use the "MIDI to Link" app in Ableton Link mode instead of "MIDImittr" and switch Live over to Link instead of Sync I can get Quantum to play when I press play in Live. But set up this way Live does not show Quantum or the MIDI LE Source/Dest as a port so I have no way of routing the MIDI Output of Quantum to the BCF2000's or Nord Drum 2. So very confused...
@rs2000 You had mentioned this:
Is this for when you want to use "Link to MIDI" as just a MIDI Clock generator, as in Live set to Sync instead of Link?
@morbank where do I download MIDImittr for osx?
Ok, I tried this with mac using Ableton Live Suite 9. I didn't need midImittr just using IDAM.
Looks like Link sync start/stop is only available in version 10.
In v9 indeed start stop doesn't work - I tried this on Patterning 2 (my goto source for testing Link) - same thing Ab
live or patterning start/stop ignored.
https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/link-synchronization-and-rewire/
Might upgrade to v10 Live to see if that works
http://www.s-r-n.de/midile/appcast/midileusbrecent.zip
Yes, exactly.
Ableton Live 10 Link start/stop works for me - I can start/stop on either iPad(Quantum) or MBP(Live)
Not sure pause/continue works as well though - but @morbank you mentioned that to me before.
@midiSequencer
Thanks for taking the time to test this.
So you are setup the same way I described above, with MIDImittr iOS and OSX, Quantum and Live 10 in Link mode and it’s working? If so the only thing I can think of is that I am using Live 10 in trial mode, but Ableton specifically say that all features are available for 30 days.
I’ll try a restart on my MacBook as a hail-mary but other than that I’m stumped???