Does an apps UI make a difference?

SevenSystems

Just chiming in: as Xequence users have probably noticed, I'm also very conservative when it comes to UI and discoverability, and what @u0421793 said sums it up for me: "If I can't find it, it doesn't exist" I made two exceptions:

1) long-tap to start rectangle selection
2) double-tap to edit a part

That's the only two non-obvious non-single-tap gestures that exist in the app

EDIT: OK sorry, there's also long-tap to drag the drum pads in edit mode. But that's non-essential and can also be done in other ways so it's not a problem.

Telefunky

A touchscreen is less about design but about response.
But design generally matters a lot - regardless of the specific manual interface.
It can be strange, though: I prefer 'low distraction low fancy degree layouts', but the (at first sight) shrieking colors of Stroke machine work well for me.
While I'm not into 3D shades at all, old fashioned Motif (unix) interface design has some really convincing appeal.
I've also seen the Apple keyboard once split by chance, oops and ignored (as a 2finger typist)

purpan2

@purpan2 said:

@u0421793 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:

@u0421793 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:
We’ve had bad UI threads in the past but it’s worth repeating that there’s all kinds of possibilities for pop up options and gestures that are under utilised. The long press is the right click and the right click is where all the magic happens in the desktop world. No need for cluttered UIs with things like tabbed pages and long press menus. Long pressing a parameter to have a number entry seems very obvious to me but so many apps miss the opportunity and instead make us fiddle. Point being, more long press menus needed.

If you (anyone) were to encounter an unfamiliar control which had a long press affordance, how would you prefer to get a clue about this without actually having to try it? In other words, how would you prefer circumventing low discoverability?

…

No need for any visual clue. It’s a right click, or command click. Hence anything that is tappable should be long tappable to get at least one or more additional functions or context menus.
…

Yes, but what is an unfamiliar person to do? Try long-tapping absolutely everything they see anywhere on the screen, in all variations and modes of what they then see? Nobody will. I certainly won’t. If a functionality is hidden, it doesn’t exist (until it randomly gets discovered, then it does, for a very small minority of users – not enough to make a difference).

For an example of undiscoverability: those of you who are watching this on an iPad and you don’t have a keyboard connected – enter a text field and get the onscreen keyboard. With two finger, split the keyboard apart (if you get the gesture correct, that is) and you’ll end up with two small half-keyboards either side. Two fingers to draw them together will return you a whole keyboard. I’d estimate about 0.1% of the iPad owner population even know it can be done (and the same percentage of those, actually ever use it).

My god it works, but what’s it for....

Ah od Coyrse thumm tiplng!)!

rs2000

@u0421793 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:

@u0421793 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:
We’ve had bad UI threads in the past but it’s worth repeating that there’s all kinds of possibilities for pop up options and gestures that are under utilised. The long press is the right click and the right click is where all the magic happens in the desktop world. No need for cluttered UIs with things like tabbed pages and long press menus. Long pressing a parameter to have a number entry seems very obvious to me but so many apps miss the opportunity and instead make us fiddle. Point being, more long press menus needed.

If you (anyone) were to encounter an unfamiliar control which had a long press affordance, how would you prefer to get a clue about this without actually having to try it? In other words, how would you prefer circumventing low discoverability?

…

No need for any visual clue. It’s a right click, or command click. Hence anything that is tappable should be long tappable to get at least one or more additional functions or context menus.
…

Yes, but what is an unfamiliar person to do? Try long-tapping absolutely everything they see anywhere on the screen, in all variations and modes of what they then see? Nobody will. I certainly won’t. If a functionality is hidden, it doesn’t exist (until it randomly gets discovered, then it does, for a very small minority of users – not enough to make a difference).

For an example of undiscoverability: those of you who are watching this on an iPad and you don’t have a keyboard connected – enter a text field and get the onscreen keyboard. With two finger, split the keyboard apart (if you get the gesture correct, that is) and you’ll end up with two small half-keyboards either side. Two fingers to draw them together will return you a whole keyboard. I’d estimate about 0.1% of the iPad owner population even know it can be done (and the same percentage of those, actually ever use it).

Well in this case I guess most people don't know it because they wouldn't use it anyway. Wih an OS as widespread as iOS, the hidden functions that really help in everyday use are usually well-known to most.
Music apps have a harder time with "hidden" functions getting popular but that's what forum.audiob.us is for

Now what is more important - serving the unfamiliar who don't even like to read manuals or learn how to use an app, or serve the people that are ready to invest a little bit of patience in order to have more fun making music with an app that has a large feature set without a crammed interface?
In the hope that people commonly use an app for a longer period of time than the time it takes to learn it (otherwise I'd certainly agree with your point of view) strongly believe that most appaholics here will prefer to get the latter
Also, making people take the time and patience to learn something is certainly not the worst of ideas nowadays.

Sure, there is a limit to what still feels acceptable - if it's hard to do anything serious without a manual at all, then maybe the UI concept is a bit too exotic for the "average guy".

u0421793

Good luck with that

db909

A long tap here and there is fine, but what really pisses me off is that “double tap with one finger does this, double tap with two fingers does this, three fingers, long press with four fingers” BULLSHIT. It’s like go back to the lab and finish your interface. Anyways, we don’t have to worry that much about that because only the shittiest apps pull that kind of crap. But I have seen it.

LucidMusicInc

@db909 said:
A long tap here and there is fine, but what really pisses me off is that “double tap with one finger does this, double tap with two fingers does this, three fingers, long press with four fingers” BULLSHIT. It’s like go back to the lab and finish your interface. Anyways, we don’t have to worry that much about that because only the shittiest apps pull that kind of crap. But I have seen it.

The gestures you mentioned are borrowed from other apps, for example Procreate uses multi taps for things luxe undo redo zooming etc. I’ve disabled the multi finger gestures because it’s a little clumsy.

Since we’re talking about keyboards everyone knows you can get cursor movement on the iPhone with a long press and on the iPad with a double finger long press.

+1 for the long press!

rs2000

@LucidMusicInc said:

@db909 said:
A long tap here and there is fine, but what really pisses me off is that “double tap with one finger does this, double tap with two fingers does this, three fingers, long press with four fingers” BULLSHIT. It’s like go back to the lab and finish your interface. Anyways, we don’t have to worry that much about that because only the shittiest apps pull that kind of crap. But I have seen it.

The gestures you mentioned are borrowed from other apps, for example Procreate uses multi taps for things luxe undo redo zooming etc. I’ve disabled the multi finger gestures because it’s a little clumsy.

Since we’re talking about keyboards everyone knows you can get cursor movement on the iPhone with a long press and on the iPad with a double finger long press.

+1 for the long press!

Don't forget fast double finger cursor movement inside text editing areas without the need to "long press"

SevenSystems

@rs2000 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:

@db909 said:
A long tap here and there is fine, but what really pisses me off is that “double tap with one finger does this, double tap with two fingers does this, three fingers, long press with four fingers” BULLSHIT. It’s like go back to the lab and finish your interface. Anyways, we don’t have to worry that much about that because only the shittiest apps pull that kind of crap. But I have seen it.

The gestures you mentioned are borrowed from other apps, for example Procreate uses multi taps for things luxe undo redo zooming etc. I’ve disabled the multi finger gestures because it’s a little clumsy.

Since we’re talking about keyboards everyone knows you can get cursor movement on the iPhone with a long press and on the iPad with a double finger long press.

+1 for the long press!

Don't forget fast double finger cursor movement inside text editing areas without the need to "long press"

Never heard of that, 8 year iOS device user and developer here. Go figure

rs2000

@SevenSystems said:

@rs2000 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:

@db909 said:
A long tap here and there is fine, but what really pisses me off is that “double tap with one finger does this, double tap with two fingers does this, three fingers, long press with four fingers” BULLSHIT. It’s like go back to the lab and finish your interface. Anyways, we don’t have to worry that much about that because only the shittiest apps pull that kind of crap. But I have seen it.

The gestures you mentioned are borrowed from other apps, for example Procreate uses multi taps for things luxe undo redo zooming etc. I’ve disabled the multi finger gestures because it’s a little clumsy.

Since we’re talking about keyboards everyone knows you can get cursor movement on the iPhone with a long press and on the iPad with a double finger long press.

+1 for the long press!

Don't forget fast double finger cursor movement inside text editing areas without the need to "long press"

Never heard of that, 8 year iOS device user and developer here. Go figure

This kind of surprises can only make us happier people, don't you think?

SevenSystems

@rs2000 said:

@SevenSystems said:

@rs2000 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:

@db909 said:
A long tap here and there is fine, but what really pisses me off is that “double tap with one finger does this, double tap with two fingers does this, three fingers, long press with four fingers” BULLSHIT. It’s like go back to the lab and finish your interface. Anyways, we don’t have to worry that much about that because only the shittiest apps pull that kind of crap. But I have seen it.

The gestures you mentioned are borrowed from other apps, for example Procreate uses multi taps for things luxe undo redo zooming etc. I’ve disabled the multi finger gestures because it’s a little clumsy.

Since we’re talking about keyboards everyone knows you can get cursor movement on the iPhone with a long press and on the iPad with a double finger long press.

+1 for the long press!

Don't forget fast double finger cursor movement inside text editing areas without the need to "long press"

Never heard of that, 8 year iOS device user and developer here. Go figure

This kind of surprises can only make us happier people, don't you think?

always gotta look on the bright side 🎶

But I seem to remember I've briefly seen it in a keynote when they introduced it...

u0421793

@SevenSystems said:

@rs2000 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:

@db909 said:
A long tap here and there is fine, but what really pisses me off is that “double tap with one finger does this, double tap with two fingers does this, three fingers, long press with four fingers” BULLSHIT. It’s like go back to the lab and finish your interface. Anyways, we don’t have to worry that much about that because only the shittiest apps pull that kind of crap. But I have seen it.

The gestures you mentioned are borrowed from other apps, for example Procreate uses multi taps for things luxe undo redo zooming etc. I’ve disabled the multi finger gestures because it’s a little clumsy.

Since we’re talking about keyboards everyone knows you can get cursor movement on the iPhone with a long press and on the iPad with a double finger long press.

+1 for the long press!

Don't forget fast double finger cursor movement inside text editing areas without the need to "long press"

Never heard of that, 8 year iOS device user and developer here. Go figure

I’ve never heard of any that either.

Philippe

Shift button with direct visual of the alternate functions is soooo under exploited.

Also,
Tap that trigger without the need for release is essential for quick response.
That paired with a tab bar for navigation between different windows seems obvious to me...

rs2000

@Philippe said:
Shift button with direct visual of the alternate functions is soooo under exploited.

Also,
Tap that trigger without the need for release is essential for quick response.
That paired with a tab bar for navigation between different windows seems obvious to me...

Yes, we're still on a long way to make the best use out of touch screen devices.
Must be our heritage.

db909

since were in the realm of music apps on a screen you can touch, seems like there should be more apps designed ergonomically as if they were playable instruments, it is software after all, any layout is possible. Barring utility apps and such. If it’s a daw, on a touch screen, I wanna feel like I’m “playing” it. But this type of thing is rarely done. Imagine if Spacecrafts interface conventions were applied across an entire daw or groovebox. We’d have a lot of fun

rs2000

@db909 said:
since were in the realm of music apps on a screen you can touch, seems like there should be more apps designed ergonomically as if they were playable instruments, it is software after all, any layout is possible. Barring utility apps and such. If it’s a daw, on a touch screen, I wanna feel like I’m “playing” it. But this type of thing is rarely done. Imagine if Spacecrafts interface conventions were applied across an entire daw or groovebox. We’d have a lot of fun

A DAW is a complex beast with a much, much longer list of features than SpaceCraft.
It's a long way from the idea to a design that is working well for most users.
Suppose we users would collaborate to design such a DAW, just the UI and what the controls do, I bet we would spend ages until most agree upon an acceptable design and a list of features that has a finite length

db909

@rs2000 said:

@db909 said:
since were in the realm of music apps on a screen you can touch, seems like there should be more apps designed ergonomically as if they were playable instruments, it is software after all, any layout is possible. Barring utility apps and such. If it’s a daw, on a touch screen, I wanna feel like I’m “playing” it. But this type of thing is rarely done. Imagine if Spacecrafts interface conventions were applied across an entire daw or groovebox. We’d have a lot of fun

A DAW is a complex beast with a much, much longer list of features than SpaceCraft.
It's a long way from the idea to a design that is working well for most users.
Suppose we users would collaborate to design such a DAW, just the UI and what the controls do, I bet we would spend ages until most agree upon an acceptable design and a list of features that has a finite length

Oh I’m aware.

MobileMusic

@purpan2 said:

@u0421793 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:

@u0421793 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:
We’ve had bad UI threads in the past but it’s worth repeating that there’s all kinds of possibilities for pop up options and gestures that are under utilised. The long press is the right click and the right click is where all the magic happens in the desktop world. No need for cluttered UIs with things like tabbed pages and long press menus. Long pressing a parameter to have a number entry seems very obvious to me but so many apps miss the opportunity and instead make us fiddle. Point being, more long press menus needed.

If you (anyone) were to encounter an unfamiliar control which had a long press affordance, how would you prefer to get a clue about this without actually having to try it? In other words, how would you prefer circumventing low discoverability?

…

No need for any visual clue. It’s a right click, or command click. Hence anything that is tappable should be long tappable to get at least one or more additional functions or context menus.
…

Yes, but what is an unfamiliar person to do? Try long-tapping absolutely everything they see anywhere on the screen, in all variations and modes of what they then see? Nobody will. I certainly won’t. If a functionality is hidden, it doesn’t exist (until it randomly gets discovered, then it does, for a very small minority of users – not enough to make a difference).

For an example of undiscoverability: those of you who are watching this on an iPad and you don’t have a keyboard connected – enter a text field and get the onscreen keyboard. With two finger, split the keyboard apart (if you get the gesture correct, that is) and you’ll end up with two small half-keyboards either side. Two fingers to draw them together will return you a whole keyboard. I’d estimate about 0.1% of the iPad owner population even know it can be done (and the same percentage of those, actually ever use it).

My god it works, but what’s it for....

If you have small fingers and want to type without having to move the hands - right on the corners. Similar to Reachability - you double tap (not press) on the Home button to slide the app icons down to access the icons on the top with one hand.

LucidMusicInc

@MobileMusic said:

@purpan2 said:

@u0421793 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:

@u0421793 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:
We’ve had bad UI threads in the past but it’s worth repeating that there’s all kinds of possibilities for pop up options and gestures that are under utilised. The long press is the right click and the right click is where all the magic happens in the desktop world. No need for cluttered UIs with things like tabbed pages and long press menus. Long pressing a parameter to have a number entry seems very obvious to me but so many apps miss the opportunity and instead make us fiddle. Point being, more long press menus needed.

If you (anyone) were to encounter an unfamiliar control which had a long press affordance, how would you prefer to get a clue about this without actually having to try it? In other words, how would you prefer circumventing low discoverability?

…

No need for any visual clue. It’s a right click, or command click. Hence anything that is tappable should be long tappable to get at least one or more additional functions or context menus.
…

Yes, but what is an unfamiliar person to do? Try long-tapping absolutely everything they see anywhere on the screen, in all variations and modes of what they then see? Nobody will. I certainly won’t. If a functionality is hidden, it doesn’t exist (until it randomly gets discovered, then it does, for a very small minority of users – not enough to make a difference).

For an example of undiscoverability: those of you who are watching this on an iPad and you don’t have a keyboard connected – enter a text field and get the onscreen keyboard. With two finger, split the keyboard apart (if you get the gesture correct, that is) and you’ll end up with two small half-keyboards either side. Two fingers to draw them together will return you a whole keyboard. I’d estimate about 0.1% of the iPad owner population even know it can be done (and the same percentage of those, actually ever use it).

My god it works, but what’s it for....

If you have small fingers and want to type without having to move the hands - right on the corners. Similar to Reachability - you double tap (not press) on the Home button to slide the app icons down to access the icons on the top with one hand.

Or people with arthritis or other disabilities perhaps. The keyboard has all kinds of great features including offline voice dictation which is part of why I genuinely love Apple products.

purpan2

@MobileMusic said:

@purpan2 said:

@u0421793 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:

@u0421793 said:

@LucidMusicInc said:

If you have small fingers and want to type without having to move the hands - right on the corners. Similar to Reachability - you double tap (not press) on the Home button to slide the app icons down to access the icons on the top with one hand.

thanks. I tried it and it’s actually quite good.

purpan2

Or people with arthritis or other disabilities perhaps. The keyboard has all kinds of great features including offline voice dictation which is part of why I genuinely love Apple products.

Stupidly, I hadn’t thought of that, too. Makes good sense.