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Comments
@Dawdles What I find problematic is that you’ve inserted yourself into every critique someone has made. It’s almost like you jump into the target regardless if they’re aiming at you or not. 90% of the responses to this thread are positive, but you to seem to be on a mission to “wake everyone up” so to speak. Why? Why is this so important to you? Do you think this tactic is working or do you just feel like being heard at every possible opportunity?
Oh wow I just wrote a message to a ghost. Carry on!
I think opinions should be articulated, and argument is how we learn and possibly make change. This thread is a good argument for keeping it civil, respecting developers who take the time to participate here, and to have the courtesy not to try to dominate a thread with repetitive self-serving comments. As with any argument, try to actually understand the other person's point rather than using it to steer the subject back to "all about you."
I don't believe this is about stifling debate. No liberal conspiracy. It's about trying to make this the most productive place for the most users. Sometimes one has to get over themselves and off the soapbox, don't be the victim, stop wallowing in self-pity, forget blaming others, and remember this forum is a gift to the public, not a personal complaint box.
Probably for the best. He obviously wasn’t happy here.
I found myself agreeing with Dawdles at times, but his opinions became overshadowed by his need to be heard and all that encapsulates that. To be fair to him, many were seemingly being deliberate in their winding him up. Often it’s best to just leave people like that alone for a while - and by that I mean Dawdles and the winders (could that be a group name).
Funny how things turn out though, because I can still see how his frustrations began and how he was almost manipulated into his anger, but essentially we are responsible for our own behaviour. So, while I agree with the sentiments of the OP here, I can see that a few here won’t even see their own responsibility for jabbing him with a stick.
I do disagree with the sentiments of treating devs as God’s. I really do believe we should treat anyone with reasonable respect, but we really must tell devs when they are getting it wrong. It may only be our opinions, but they are valid and have worth if delivered in an open, honest and constructive way.
I’m curious if some of the communication problems have come down to language barriers? I noticed some irregular phrasing to the information coming from Intua. Now the tin foil wearers (me at times), would say that this is just clever manipulation, but I’m more tending to see that much of all this stems from poor communication. By using the term poor communication, though, I am not blaming. We all use poor communication at times, language being a barrier or not.
I think one of the main things here is for us all to learn how we can better be less personal when we try to deliver our views. I would normally discuss an app as a thing and not something that is the dev. In many of our cases though (myself included), we got sucked in to expressing more personally (as I have here mentioning Dawdles by name). Really what we should do though is temper our own words when we do know what we are doing.
IMO, It was obvious that many of us fell into the trap of stroking our own egos in these threads. There is a fine line between offering true words of caution and wisdom to a fellow poster and coming across as ego stroking and we all wavered a lot over BM3 chat. Passions truly ran high with this one.
From my perspective, BM3 is now relegated to a lesser role in my music making. This is my personal choice and while I’m going to still use its future with hoping eyes, it bears little to anyone here. We all are such a diverse group and how we make music is equally as diverse. I think that’s what started this whole wind up emotionally on the BM3 thread - people trying to tell others how they should feel and what is important - just as bad as a bit of ranting IMO.
Now back to my latest app cull. This time I’m really letting the knife fly!
Very well said!
I'm not speaking for the OP, but to me treating devs "like royalty" is hyperbole to mean, appreciate what they sacrifice to make iOS apps, the difficulties they face, and the advantage of being able to talk with them in public here. That doesn't mean, keep quiet and don't dare mention you have a problem. Just don't drive them away with needless confrontation, or use this platform to threaten or try to bully them.
I won't mention names, but some members here have a pattern of antagonism toward developers, certainly those who don't make them happy, whether they don't cater to their pet needs, charge more than they want to spend, don't respond to their complaints fast enough, etc.. As a pattern, it comes across as entitled and self-centered, and so they draw a lot of negativity in their own direction. Then they want to play the victim, and downhill it goes.
D1 is coming along nicely
Like... All we are is dust in the wind, man.
Yes, but we all have to take responsibility to how these situations are handled. For example: some here would like most new apps to be AU from the beginning. I include myself in that group. I find it is not worth my while posting that on any new app thread now though, because I know that will turn the thread into something negative. This happens not because people post that they want AU, but because people that tell others what they should want or how they should feel.
I agree wholeheartedly that we should treat devs with respect as we should each of us here dev or not. I think it is not helpful though if we go from the one extreme you talk about (which I agree is not nice) to the other where we can almost give the devs the wrong impression by not expressing our opinions.
Yes, it would be great if we were all very eloquent and able to express our opinions to the devs well and them back to us. Let’s be honest, some devs are just as bad at communication as some of us customers. It’s getting the balance right. We almost need to lose our passion to be more constructive lol.
But I do think it would be amiss to not mention those that pounce on anyone that dares to discuss wants, desires, and their own opinions. Just as many threads here are destroyed by those that try to project their own feelings on others, often wrapped up into being the voice of reason. What we need to do is learn to sometimes step back and know that sometimes it’s best not to say anything - sometimes it’s best to ignore.
+1
+1
i don't tend to enjoy eCommunication , i find the disconnect too real.
here (and the friendsfamilyfacebook) are the only places i engage.
our shared enthusiasm for the wonderful discoveries and opportunities (for 🎶 making) that are created on a (seemingly) daily basis, together with the freedom to post! provided by this ship and it's captain, make this a great place to visit
i'm sure were we all together in person, there would be none of this bickering and squabbling, but elecric bodies so SPikEy!,;),
i always try to remind myself; a fire needs feeding
∞
It's easy to miscommunicate online. Sometimes the frustration of that can get the better of you. Especially when trying to communicate on a subject that you take seriously and having to deal with mocking replies.
Forums tend to veer towards groupthink and clique forming behaviour. I don't enjoy that side of it at all.
Groupthink and Clique behaviour - sounds like real life too
Too many years of instinct and human behaviour coming out me thinks.
Take what happened with Dawdles. Classic fight (fight flight freeze) behaviour. He expressed opinion. That opinion and at times how he expressed it wasn’t popular. A few started throwing rocks and he like any animal backed into a corner started throwing them back.
The problem was, that the corner itself was of his own making, he could quite simply ignored their insults, but chose to engage - making more noise and making the group throwing the rocks grow.
Heightened emotional states often lead to these things happening. While Dawdles clearly expressed a heightened emotional state in his writing, so did those that claimed to be calm and the voices of reason, but threw rocks at him.
Sorry, you are giving Dawdles too much benefit of the doubt. I remember when he first started posting around here, his tone was obnoxious. I didn’t always disagree with what he said but I almost always disagreed with the way he said it. People don’t need to be assholes to make a point.
The problem when you express an unpopular opinion on a forum, is that you're going to get a lot of negative replies. So you respond to them, and while you're responding a few more might join in for the bunfight and the whole thing can snowball. It then appears as if you've taken over the thread with your opinion, but in reality you haven't - you're just reposnding to comments you've been tagged in. Inevitably things start getting personal, and the 'backed into a corner' thing comes into play.
I've been there, done that, left the forum, came back again. Some don't, and we lose something each time that happens.
We don't know Mr Dawdles situation, but personally I've got into similar scrapes because I suffer from OCD/PDA, possibly a bit of autism too, and I feel that I HAVE to respond to a perceived injustice. One of things I've had to learn is to walk away. So I had the 'Pro' upgrade and generally, things are calmer in my corner now.
I hope Mr Dawdles and any of the others who have left can do the same thing, and they come back and enjoy the positive aspects of being on this forum.
Yes. Spot on.
Well said.
Look at how at times, we butted horns. Now, we have both learnt what pushes each other’s buttons and avoid them - the result is we seem to learn from each other and while we don’t always agree, We are able to have conversation without conflict.
Like real life but with the addition of online ego.
I don't buy into the drama triangle myself. More of a dodecahedron guy when it comes to that. I find the reactions to the whole saga and self praise some are engaging in more concerning.
But I'm new here, say a lot of dumb things and ride the edge that some inevitably fall off from.
You can have whatever opinion you like about a music app. It's how you express it in terms of your language and tone that matters, and there's no doubt that a limited few on here are waaaaaay too quick to anger!
Maybe I’m a triangle man because of its pervy connotations
Never heard of it, but I believe everything in life involves 'transactions'. Both positive and negative.
I'm always practicing my ability to pick the ones I prefer... 😅
Here is my favorite line in the link @JohnnyGoodyear shared:
“unique organisms not found elsewhere”
I have read this thread only just now and with great interest. I kind of wish @gusgranite hadn't started this thread though I have tremendous affection and respect for him and understand his disappointment in human nature and his desire to try and improve it. I am sad about the censure of Dawdles. I hope the @d4dOug of the "Drama Triangle" post will elucidate as I think it will shed light on our complicity in this "drama".
I have a few things to say:
1. Once again, despite any shortcomings of the active and not so active participants, most are remarkable personalities here who present a generosity of spirit and intelligence difficult to find elsewhere.
That it is possible that this forum provides about as best a platform for consciousness raising as one can come across.
IMO it is possible that we all might actually improve from a conversation like this rather than merely take confrontational positions for or against. How can this arise on a forum devoted to iOS apps? Amazing!
Though it will seem very odd, I must confess that I shed some tears as I followed this conversation. Partially because of the inherent beauty of the attempt here to be better and more compassionate people, but also because any suppression of free speech, as in Dawdles case, feels like a real transgression of inalienable human rights to me, especially these days. Some might recall Dawdles and I came to blows a while back. He did push my buttons! But I allowed my buttons to be pushed. He actually helped me to see that and inPMs we resolved our conflict. I have always respected his knowledge and accepted whatever psychological motives fueled his contentiousness.
In the spiritual philosophy of Adveyda Vedanta ( as I understand it), on this beknighted planet everyone is doing the best he possibly can, even the murderer and rapist. This does not mean society should not do something to put such people out of business, but that there can be no real blame attached. It is just the way each of us wound up, we just can't help it. With a situation like Dawdles his statements have always prompted reactions like "Clownboy" seen here ( I respect the poster who said this very much). Another example of how we cannot help our reactivity, except at a higher level of awareness ( as Einstein said re technological problems). Perhaps he can see his participation now in the "drama triangle" just as I did my own reactivity thanks to Dawdles provocative stance. I hope so. This is what I mean by the platform presenting an opportunity for consciousness raising for all participants. And I find this so rewarding, stunning and worthwhile compared to experiences I have had on other forums.
In regard to the above, I am now engaged in a very contentious discussion about jazz on the PianoWorld forum.
I find my attempt to express another viewpoint being belittled, and my own credibility, talent, knowledge, honesty, skill, education, viewpoint, personal integrity, as well as that of my teachers being openly and blatantly dismissed and discredited by several folks In no uncertain terms. That I feel this as a genuine attempt at suppression ( though of something rather unimportant in the scheme of things) is, for me, emblematic of the forces constantly at work in our world and present ( as Jung described the shadow self) in all of us to greater and lesser degrees. For the more concerned and introspective among us this is a constant reason for self examination and identification of the more primitive fears and impulses that can easily erupt in the best of us and with the best of intentions. If you would like to read this thread, please PM me and I will give you the link. Believe me, it is an eye opener, particularly because the participants assume a mantle of rectitude and intellectual superiority that masks the deeper and creepier motivations below the surface,
Finally, thank you for the opportunity to be so long winded about this. I realize it is of great importance to me but may not be to others. The tolerance of this forum is to be highly valued in these troubled times ( for those who don't know, I currently live in Istanbul and am seeing things in quite a new light). With that in mind I would ask @michael to reconsider Dawdles as, from my observation, our reactivity continually drew him further into the net we all unwittingly ( or wittingly) participated in ( including myself). He is a valuable contributor with a difficulty in diplomatic communication. The opportunity for him to grow could be recognized as equally important as our own potentialities. I say give him that chance, but it is only my opinion.
Thank you @gusgranite for providing a thread to discuss these issues not directly related to drambo's release. This is a dimension of the forum that, for me, is as important as all the iOS fun we have. Best regards, Mike
😂😂😂😂😂😂oh boy 😅😅
Have I missed something?
There’s too much hate in this world man!
We all need to love each other and accept everyone’s differences...
Unless of course, their opinions clash with mine
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I feel a little like Henry Fonda in Twelve Angry Men. I read the BM3 thread that led to this. I don't like @dawdles knee jerk hostility but I do think he is provoked time and again into it. And I believe the better angels of his nature struggle with his difficulty in expressing himself, otherwise he would not have said this:
"Someone school me!
thanks!"
@brambos you’re woke on this stuff, maybe you can do me a solid please dude and school me on this so it makes more sense to me? I’m not ‘enjoying’ throwing shade at the thread/forum, just naturally disappointed with the update so if I could understand the reason why it absolutely had to be implemented in the new limited way, without the old routing flexibility, I can go shed a couple silent tears and move on
It is sort of like Captwin Queeg (Bogart) in the Caine Mutiny. Queeg asks for help from his subordinates, is denied it and goes on to self destruction. Sorry, I have to think we are complicit in this. He makes us want to be derisive, but we give into it and claim we are the righteous ones. I love the people here, and appreciate the provocative nature of @dawdles remarks, but we always seem to fan his fire. Rather than react it is an opportunity for us to maintain the high ground and be better than that. In that respect we might thank the man for the opportunity he gives us to be bigger and better. Just sayin'
@LinearLineman
Well thought out. I too call on us to give more understanding to those that sometimes get seemingly all railed up. There are some beautifully intelligent people on this forum, but we all have to get mindful at times of our own roles in heightening the emotions of others. We may not always mean to or even be aware that we are, but there is seldom fire on this forum without others fanning the flames.
Take away too many personalities here and we end up with nothing of substance - a club where we all agree all of the time is not only pointless, but dangerous too.