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Is iPad really better for live performance than a MacBook Pro?
Hey there, I’m a long time reader, first time poster…..
Basically I’m a keyboard player who schleps his gear all over the world, but more currently I’m doing a lot of gigs in London trying to only use the public transport! Hence, I’m on the ultimate quest for a lightweight but powerful live setup! Can you help with your expertise please?!
I’d love for people who know a lot about computers to weigh in on a question thats been plaguing me for a while:
What is better for live midi keyboard performance, a MacBook Pro with MainStage, or an iPad Pro (newest generation, we’ll say the 1TB version that has 6GB of RAM) with a plugin host (AUM, AudioBus, MidiDesigner, KeyStage, pick your poison etc)?
Is there a difference between the types of specs listed for an iPad Pro and a MacBook Pro, i.e. is 6GB of RAM on an iPad equivalent to 6GB of RAM on a MacBook Pro? It seems to me not all hardware is created equal!
As far as I can see it, these are the concerns:
Performance:
The MacBook seems to have more computing power for the money, but the OS is more demanding, has more background processes going on, and the plugins are often much heavier than their iOS equivalents/ported versions… So I’m unsure what conclusion to draw here
Cost:
The maxed out iPad Pro is cheaper than a MacBook Pro (as you’d ideally go for i7, 16GB or more of RAM for a reliable machine).
Plugin apps on the iPad are also much cheaper than those for Mac, but MainStage does give you an awful lot for $30…
Reliability:
There seem to be more points of failure with a MacBook Pro/Mainstage setup in the software (e.g. its a multipurpose machine with a lot of background tasks, often incorporating 3rd party software which may or may not play nice)
Stage Worthiness:
I personally feel an iPad is better suited to the stage than a MacBook Pro (i.e. a bit more robust, slightly less prone to beer being spilled on it!).
An iPad holder that attaches to a standard size mic stand for me works better than lugging around a hefty laptop stand on top of the rest of your gear, smaller stage footprint etc
Interface:
Here is where I think the MacBook/Mainstage has an advantage, there is a better interface for complex setups, faster switching between different view modes, easier to quickly diagnose/solve problems on the fly, trackpad and keyboard are faster ways of inputting info than a touchscreen
Sorry this probably came out as a ramble… but I’d love to hear what worked/didn’t work for any of you live!
Comments
The answer is no for me but of course that depends on what kind of tools you use.
I wouldn´t trust both in a live set-up these days. But macOS is a lot more stable and powerful if you running a lot tools and want to switch applications while live usage.
You might read the thread here about the new iPad CPU spikes with just a few apps which is the worst case in a live set-up (but that might be solved already with the coming update).
Plug-ins are not much more expensive these days if you count the content you might get or buy into complete solutions like Komplete or like you say Mainstage or Logic etc.
I think it´s mainly about your workflow and preferences. Both options can work or fail in certain things.
Hi @crawfish,
Another keyboar.../keytar... dist here.
Background:
Around 3 years ago I sold my mac mini (late 2012 with ssd around 450€) to buy an iPad mini4 plus iTrack dock. I had experience before with iPad 3gen and Is202 dock for live looping purposes so I see the potential on the proposal. Also I started to buy standalone hardware for certain tasks to keep the iPad the most mono task (monlithic apps) as possible in prevision of possible troubles with app switching or intense CPU demanding for things like vocal processing or Live FX.
Facts:
It was more or less working until iOS10. I had some minor drawbacks here and there like old docks not handling usb host and midi at same time, old cck not charging iPad solved by cck3 usb dongle release... etc... but then iOS11 hit the streets and from promised pros we enter into reality cons...
Conclusion:
I ended buying again a mac mini (late 2012 again but this time ssd+16gb ram and for 400€) to recover my lovely Mainstage meanwhile some other Host are emerging and, even sound promissing, their better value is crossplatform (Stagelight, Camelot...). I also bought a Studiologic Numa2 compact to have standalone sounds in the worst scenario possible (aka new mac mini failing). Also some monolithic iOS app such Neo Soul Keys studio, Chords or GroupTheLoop for those times I need extra mojo for my gigs but I don’t want to take the mac mini into the road (less than pure keyboard amount gigs and more risky)
Also bought a microkorg for some vocoding (and keytaring) and looking for FX vocal unit to complement my setup (I will appreciate suggestions)
So,
For the studio I have mac mini with Mainstage (Logic ASAP), Stagelight (Ableton is fading...), some learning tools like Midilicious and others for video recording for yt and tutorials (OBS with multiple cams and iPad screen recording) and that’s it.
Also I have an old PC with dedicated graphics card to add some visuals to my gigs (but this is the laaaast step)
For the gigging part I have this modular setup depending on revenue.
1- Free gigs or jams. I go with the minimum (keytar as differentiation? Small loopyHD iPhone based setup to showcase? Each gig is lotto...)
2- Low revenue gigs. I go with the Numa (arranger-like sessions) and backing tracks from the iPhone (in the best of the cases). Also I have a Phillips M1X for pool parties and karaoke-like sessions.
3- Middle revenue gigs (or personal ones). I go with Numa/keytar and proper setup. If keyboard playing plus singing involved I consider bringing the mac mini, if not iPad mini with some tricks but just as tricks not relaying the whole gig on it. If Keytar playing plus singing involved (personal gigs) then I bring the itrack dock + iPad mini and GTL (for looping sets with some song structure). Obviously this is the most risky step on my strategy but I decide if bet or not based on potential revenue flow.
4- Well payed gigs. I bring all but obviously I also get an insurance to avoid problems.
Disclaimer:
I never get an iPad pro (older and obviously neither the newer) but at price range vs apps available for the OS old macs are a no-brainer solution for me.
If I get only well payed gigs then gear will not be an issue but with the money in my pocket I will not go for the iPad pro route due lack of professional apps such Mainstage.
Also I want to add as a fact the heat problems involved with iDevices where at certain temperatures they disconnect until they recover lower temperature so forget to play outdoors with sun heating your rig... That’s something that will never shouldn’t happen with a mac/pc computer and even less with a standalone hardware workstation/arranger. Period.
Price wise could be a temptation to buy an iPad pro. With apps like Camelot maybe they will getting close to Mainstage but until Apple decide to make iOS truly pro or port apps like Logic/Mainstage into it... sorry but I can’t advice iPads as professional tools for keyboardist live gigs.
As a final point Apple latest keynote where new mac mini and iPad pro usb-c model were released you can find Apple itself pointing to mac minis as Mainstage perfect host. It could be a strategy to sell more mac minis but why not to demo mac mini with Logic and iPad pro with Mainstage?
Problably due Power is there but OS (and apps) not (yet).
Jm2c.
You have listed many hardware details but it might help to detail on what you need on stage. A few piano and keyboard presets?
A collection of VA synths? What kind?
I wouldn't trust an iPad on stage, not when I need fast switching between sampled and virtual instruments. Because of iOS and the apps that are not optimized for being robust on a stage scenario. Much less beta testers and users mean longer or even nonexistent debugging so before most issues are fixed, you sometimes rather find a new app instead.
There are so many more people using Macs live that you can be sure the most relevant problems are fixed by now.
The general consensus is that MacBook running Ableton Live is more stable live. However it is also true, as you’ve already pointed out, that it is much more prone to damage while on stage and is more of a vulnerable device with more moving parts etc. As other have pointed out it will wholly depend on your specific use. I wouldn’t discount iPad completely though, it has gotten much more stable in the last couple of years with very decent bunch of hosts and individual apps. You just have to make sure you find your setup and test it thoroughly before going on stage, which you would probably do using a laptop anyway.
With a macbook, I'd say the most likely mode of failure is it getting knocked on the ground. The most vulnerable point of failure for the ipad is the constant, irreversible updates and questionable connectivity between apps.
Yes good point! Not everyone has the same needs, so I'll try to outline mine....
My main work is "function gigs" i.e. party band/top 40/classic covers which sometimes delve into more "production-heavy" stuff (think Rihanna, Ellie Goulding, Dua Lipa)
So I would say approxamitely 60% of my required sounds would be "classic keyboards" (piano, rhodes, clav, wurly, hammond), with strings and horns.
The other 40% is synth stuff; often trying to replicate sounds as close as possible (ie you've gotta nail the lead sounds in Rock With You!), and also trying to make a live band sound a bit EDM-y (lots of supersaws, lots of filter sweeps, lots of sidechaining etc)
I've been using a Nord Stage 2 for years, and upgraded this year to the Nord Stage 3. I find it a pretty good all-in-one hardware solution but like everything it has its limitations; namely the horns suck, rhodes is meh, synth is better than on the stage 2 but still not as flexible as I'd like, and only can use 2 "synth" parts at a time.
BTW my nord is the compact model so I can carry it on the train, but it would be nice to go even lighter if possible. Part of what spurred me to start looking for lightweight and smaller (61 key) keyboard setups is because I find airlines are starting to clamp down pretty nastily with anything oversized that isn't sports equipment. Neither love nor money could get my poor Nord (in a flight case) on my damn Qantas flight.... but a snowboard the same size and dimensions is fine?!.... Sorry I digress
So does this change anyones recommendations? Thanks to everyone so far for their input!
NS2 has partially solved the connectivity thing though
iPad has come along way but until Apple takes rock solid reliability seriously for iOS music it’s a non starter for pro night in night out live gigging imo. Yes it CAN be attempted and probably done if you learn the nuances of the iPad apps etc but I would personally trust a Macbook much more.
If I had a Nord Stage 3, I would put a few great EPs and Brass samples into its on-board sample memory, a few of your favourite synth waveforms and you're done. The Stage 3's synth section is powerful enough for any synth sound if you feed it with the right samples.
This is indeed some work to do but you only have to do it once.
Until Apple makes sure their engineers focus at least once a week on making iOS music production friendly, I would say stick to macbook. Their new ARM can run augmented reality on photoshop but is not capable of handling a few Auv3s without crackling all over the place. Go figure.
Yeah its possible, the only thing with the sample section is you can't really scale the velocity nicely, and although they have a good compression algorithm its still not gonna be a large enough sample to be a great rhodes.
I realise everyone has different preferences for their ideal EP, but I feel that even the freebie Logic EP is objectively better than Nord, and has much better playability. Unfortunately with sampled instruments bigger (file size) is usually better.
I love Nord for lots of reasons but I find it hard to defend them on the EP front; those sounds have barely been updated for years. I understand that on stage in a mix a lot of the subtleties are lost, but having spent hundreds of hours with these sounds in my ears I feel justified to criticise!
For synths, I found there is a very small but noticeable delay between keystroke and the sound attack if you sample them in. Try playing synth bass with some of their "MiniMoog" samples, then compare it to playing the same thing on just a straight piano sound. The connection between keys and sound is weird and offputting, so I've always preferred playing on sounds made using the VA engine instead.
Overall I do like the synth section on the Nord, but maybe U-He Diva spoiled me for what Virtual Analog can be!
Horns/Brass.... just awful. I've tried everything, using other samples, layering individual horn samples, layering with synth brass...They added the new "Brass Section" samples, which was an improvement on the old "Soul Horn Trio", but honestly it still is almost embarrassing to play some of them if theres any horn parts in a song more prevalent than just stabs here and there.
I’m using an iPad Air 2 in my live setup and it has proved to be rock solid (at least for my needs).
I play keyboards in an 80s covers band, so I normally use pianos, electric pianos, pads, strings, brass sounds, classic synth sounds and a lot of samples.
My current hardware setup consists of a Yamaha MX61 synth (very light in weight) and a Nektar GX61 MIDI controller (extremely light) as keyboards, both connected to my ipad through a USB Hub and an Apple USB 3 adapter.
In terms of software I’m using iMIDIPatchBay for MIDI routings, splits, layers and setlists. I also use AUM to hosts several apps such as a couple of Audiolayer instances for triggering multiple samples, Korg Gadget as a multisynth, HeavyBrass for real brass sounds and eventually some other apps. So I basically use pianos, pads and strings from the Yamaha and all the rest coming from the iPad apps.
The Yamaha MX has an embedded Audio/MIDI interface and everything is routed through it so I just use its audio output to the mixing console. In AUM I do my general audio mix where every loaded app is assigned to a different MiDI channel and receives data from iMIDIPatchBay which is the main app in this configuration.
I’m not having any noticeably latency nor any crashes at all, the setup is rock solid. Please keep in mind that I’m not loading/unloading apps durings a show, I just recall a previously saved session in AUM and it remains there until the end of the show. All the splits, layers, mutes, volumes, fx sends, MIDI CCs, etc take place in iMIDIPatchbay, not in AUM. The setlist is managed in iMIDIPatchBay so when I tap on any song of the list it automatically sends all MIDI Program Change commands, CCs, splits setups, layers and effects and I’m ready to go in a second.
There’s a new app called Camelot Pro that is being launched in a few days that is supposed to have the functionality of Mainstage and it runs on Windows, Mac OS and IOS. I’m planning to evaluate it in detail together with KeyStage (a very powerful IOS app for MIDI routing and control) in order to migrate my setup to one of those new apps. Everything is fine with iMIDIPatchBay, it’s just that it’s is a relatively old app and it’s not being regularly updated with new capabilities.
As an additional comment, I use this iPad exclusively for music, so I don’t have office apps, games, nor any other non related apps installed. I also have disabled notifications, Siri voice commands, etc to avoid any unexpected surprise during a show.
Attached you can see a picture of my small setup in stage previous to a show.
Hope this helps.
Wow thanks for sharing Rodolfo! Thats all very good information, and nice to see someone who is "field testing" it too!
I hope Camelot lives up to the hype, seems like it has been in the pipeline for a while now....
With your setup, its nice that you already have a backup in the Yamaha keyboard too, I used to own the MX61 also! If only it had drawbars... I do like that it has the audio interface built in; it seems like that is becoming less popular to put on keyboards these days, but its so darn useful for integrating multiple sound sources like you have going on here!
Do you use Program Change messages to recall presets within multiple instruments when you select a song in iMidiPatchBay? It seems like not all AU instruments play nice with Program Change messages....
It looks like you would almost be able to take everything with you on the train too! I think I just need to learn to love the keys on smaller boards like the Korg Kross, and Yamaha MX61.... for certain gigs it'd be ideal, but theres always something more you'll want it to do! Keyboard players have it tough huh!
ive used my ipad at the center of my
ive rig for 3 years now and comes with it all the problems youd expect like crackles and all. i find its best as a complimentary piece of the live setup. i hate bringing laptops to the stage for the aesthetic alone.
Well, Camelot Pro launch is scheduled for Dec 12th, so we’ll know if it meets expectations pretty soon...
Regarding the Yamaha audio interface I consider it key, something less to carry in my bag, less weight, less power supplies, less cables, etc. I just use a local manufactured soft case in which I carry both keyboards and related cables and connectors.
I use PC messages basically for the Yamaha MX and for apps that do support it, but unfortunately most IOS apps have a very poor MIDI implementation so I have to use some tricks or workarounds.
As an example, I use Audiolayer only for triggering samples which I reserve for the last octave of my Nektar controller. I have one single patch in AudioLayer with a lot of samples assigned across the keyboard, but they are grouped in octaves. So when I change a song in IMPB, instead of sending a PC message it just sends an octave shift so I can access another set of samples specific for that song without changing the loaded patch.
In the case of Korg Gadget, I have several synths with specific patches already loaded in different Gadget tracks, but each track is only listening to a different and reserved MIDI channel (Avanced MIDI mode in Gadget). So again, instead of sending a PC message, it just sends a MIDI channel selection for that keyboard section/split/layer and it will trigger a specific Gadget synth only.
Although I wouldn’t dare to get on a train here in Argentina with such valuable gear, I do carry it with me on the bus or a taxi cab with no problems. That’s why I decided on a Yamaha MX, it is the best sounding synth I could find in that size and weight, and one of the reasons I decided to use only an iPad too.
I understand that my setup is very specific for my band and the music we are making, I guess that in other type of project I might use other gear and maybe a laptop with Mainstage or who knows what, but this mobile setup is doing great at the moment.
I had this in mind when I wrote, but I've waited for you to pick it up
In 2014, I met one of the Clavia/Nord engineers and asked him if they planned to add the velocity levels/layering feature to their sample editor.
He responded that there were no plans but he said he was going to suggest it in the project team. AFAIK, the velocity layer feature is still exclusive to their preset samples and unavailable to the user.
Yes, and that's what I hoped for: One single velocity layer of a good EP sample processed with a dynamic 12dB LPF being good enough for live use.
Really?? I'm shocked to hear that!
Indeed, iOS now has fantastic synths on offer, can't argue with that
If horns sound awful , a parametric EQ can often help, although brass from a keyboard is indeed a difficult matter. I guess I would prefer to trigger complete stabs and sampled licks instead, or use a good brass library in Kontakt on a small low-cost, low-latency laptop.
Not that AudioLayer on an iPhone or iPad wouldn't be able to host the favorite instruments as well, it's just that most great instrument libraries are available for Kontakt only.
Since I've seen how George Duke used Kontakt on stage a few years ago, I thought: Man, what a simple but effective setup!
Not equal. As you say later in your same post:
Though on the flip side, MacOS is much more sophisticated in its use of virtual memory. iOS apps will run ou of memory and abort. Mac apps will almost never run ou of memory, the environment just slowly degrades in performance. ;-)
@crawfish said:
For configuration, that may be a Macbook advantage, but for live performance, I think iPad has the interface/ergonomic advantage. That is, for those things that cannot be controlled directly from your keyboard, the iPad touchscreen is better than an open laptop and having to use keyboard and/or trackpad.
Outdoors, iIt also may help to use a white rather than black idevice.
Yes, and related to that, if you have a failure such that you need to do a complete system restore or hardware replacement, you can't necessarily ever restore your same OS and set of apps. Unlike a computer, you never have a true restorable backup.
Yamaha MODX6, Korg Kross 2, Roland DS61/FA06, Casio XW-P1 are all worth considering depending on your priorities. Assuming you're driving an iPad/Macbook, Casio gives you a place to put it, and 9 sliders for organ drawbar control, and internally it is a 4-zone MIDI controller. Yamaha probably has the best internal sounds overall and I think supports 8 MIDI zones. Korg is smallest/lightest and I think supports 16 MIDI zones. If you're playing the board alone and trying to squeeze the most virtual real estate you can you of 61 keys, the DS61 is more adept than most at handling splits, in that it is easy to change the sound on either side of the split on the fly, including adjusting its volume and its octave transposition. (I think the XW-P1 may be good at this as well? MODX, Kross, and FA are not.)
User samples (as well as the factory brass samples) are limited to a single velocity layer. You can do some limited velocity-based processing, but it's always using the same sample. So there's no way you can get a better EP into it than what Nord provides, and no way to get really nuanced brass samples (forget about velocity-based alternate articulations like falls, for example). That said, the Nord has its nice EX function so you could integrate iPad based brass and/or EPs into your Nord programs. (And if you only need to add one or two sounds to your rig, I think iOS is sufficient, regardless of the other advantages of the Macbook approach discussed here.)
I don't see it. Timbre on an EP just changes too much with velocity, more than you could hope to simulate with a filter. The relative amount of "bell" changes, the "bark" kicks in.>
Of course that's just a cheap workaround. And while most people in the audience won't notice, I admit that it's no fun to play such an unresponsive sound.
But imperfect as they may be, the mutii-velocity Rhodes sounds Nord already makes available are going to be better than any single velocity sound you might load in, so what would be the point? I mean, you already have things that are "good enough for live use" whose flaws "most people in the audience won't notice," right? So I don't see anything to be gained by loading in such a limited and (as you said) unresponsive additional sound.
The original question: is iOS better? probably not in most situations. But it seems like others have found it is possible to dial in a setup that is rock solid.
this fellow @rhaley for example. https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/21282/ios-keyboard-rig-complete/
also later in that thread is a mention of Keyscape, a new app that is meant to manage the MIDI routing needs for a live setup... haven't tried it but it looks useful.
The point would be to have a different sound. Just different.
I wouldn't mind using the original Nord Rhodes sounds either, I find them to work well live, but obviously they're not to @crawfish's taste.
This thread, I'm sure, is going to prove invaluable for me as a keyboard player/iPad musician just starting in a covers band.....although I am now looking at buying a new hardware synth after using a Yamaha CS1x for over 20 years!!! Thankyou Rodolfo for posting this
That Casio synth looks like a LOT of fun and seems to have some serious sound making capabilities!!!!
Also some really valuable info on this post thank you
Just a quick update (since my answer is a little bit outdated at this time).
I finally migrated my setup to KeyStage as the main app, which proved to be way superior to my previous configuration.
I’m still using a bunch of apps hosted in AUM but KeyStage is much more flexible than iMIDIPatchBay in terms of MIDI routing, CCs, Program Changes, live performance and for quickly changing parts and songs in realtime triggered by a standard switch pedal.
There's some good recent conversation on this topic at forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2982239
Also in the months since this original thread was started, Audiobus 3 itself has been updated with extensive MIDI functions and can switch presets by MIDI commands. It has been working great for me.
Would I be able to switch presets in Garageband, Thumbjam and Heavy Brass using AUDIOBUS 3? Or should I get AUM?
Last I checked, Garageband has a very minimal MIDI implementation, it does not play well with others. I don't think you could use it in any of the multi-app "sound module" scenarios we're talking about.
I have both, I use both.
I often interchange in different ways.
Based on needs and if a person is fortunate like myself to have access to multiple tools.
I don't see a need for a MacBook to be honest but it makes things easier and opens up cue circumstances.
AUM has no benefit over Audiobus 3 in this regard. First, Garageband won’t play well in either app. Its Apple’s fault. They didn’t design GarageBand to be anything other than the primary host. So no, you can’t change GarageBand presets any other way than opening garageband and tapping the screen.
Audiobus 3 and AUM both have MIDI controlled session/ preset loading. I’ve had it working great in Audiobus 3, but have not yet used it in AUM. One thing I noticed is that AUM can take longer to load a session.