Loopy Pro: Create music, your way.
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Sincere plea to app developers
I want to give you money!
I want to support you!
I want to tell the world about you and your amazing app(s)!
I want to give you free advertising and marketing by posting raving positive reviews on multiple websites as well as to other musicians I know and meet (I've probably told at least 20 serious recording musicians or more about Audiobus)
Basically, I'm on your side.
But in exchange, please respect me and be honest with me.
I know Apple, like any other typical corporation, have difficult, dumb policies that many times don't make sense.
I know it's challenging and a miracle of what you are able to accomplish on iphones and ipads that we could only dream of a decade or more ago.
But that doesn't excuse selling buggy apps or apps that promise many things that fail to deliver.
It ultimately taints the entire image of ios music making (in my opinion) and prevents the greater music making market from finding out about your brilliance.
Thanks for listening.
End of rant
Comments
@gjcyrus Good comment
It'd also be useful to list examples of "apps that promise many things that fail to deliver" as this can take many forms.
Cycler3d
@paradiddle ... would be critical to list the areas where that app falls short... otherwise we're all just playing guessing games
IOS 7....
Inter app audio crashes & bugs
Safari crashes
App Store glitches
CCK & Jack disconnection audio crashes
@DaveMagoo understood wrt bugs / crashes. No one wants those, no debate there. I'm more curious about the non-bug part of the original post, wrt "apps that promise many things that fail to deliver" since that could mean many different things to different people.
@Rhism - Don't worry, Guitarism is one of my fave apps and you're one of the top devs in my opinion. I'd rather not list the apps because I truly wanted to leave a positive message instead of a negative one as I've left a few the last few weeks.
If something is not working right or if there's a cool feature one is TRYING to implement, just be upfront about it. It's totally cool. What's not cool is spending hard earned cash an worst, spending time on something only to find out it doesn't do what it claimed to do. Anyways, thanks for all replies.
meh, when it comes to non-bug related "failure to deliver," I just am of the opinion that there are superior and inferior products.
Read any product description on sweetwater.com and find me one that tells the "real" truth about the product. You'll never see a company describing their product as having "moderate noise levels that we just couldn't afford to isolate" or "similar tone to a Squier, for only $200 extra dollars!"
I dunno, I'm also a second revision adopter, so I let other people take the hits on apps that over-promise and under-deliver. I've been disappointed by my own expectations for a product/app on way to many occasions. (Which could also be a part of OP's issue... not a condemnation, just mentioning a possibility)
@uglykidmoe Right - no seller is going to downplay their product or highlight its shortcomings. But it's also fair to say that we don't expect a product with moderate noise levels to claim to be "100% noise-free" either. Neglecting to mention your faults is one thing, misleading and false advertising is quite another.
@gjcyrus Thanks and understood wrt not wanting to list the apps, but perhaps just an unordered list of 'sins' that you've encountered, without mentioning app names? It's everyone's business to call out bad / undesirable behavior in order to collectively raise the standard and quality of our shared platform.
This is such a broad topic,we could include apps that promise to perform and then stop dead when the next version of IOS appears or apps that have the way they function changed in a dramatic way.
In app purchases should we include those ?
Apps effected by other apps who's fault is it ?
Getting back to @gjcyrus's rant I feel your pain and I know it was regarding a certain groove box
who's Dev claimed on this forum that his app would definitely handle 24bit audio.
Maybe it will in a future update,in which case the Dev should have said just that but I suppose
Your point is,you would like certain Devs to stop treating you like a child by telling you what you want to hear ,just so that you buy their app even if it's not true.
I just wonder if they realise or even care that this behaviour can damage their reputation.
I would just like to end this on a positive note there are a lot of apps that give you more than you
Expect and really do surprise !
@Multitouch Wrt unfulfilled promises, I think a dev promise should be given close-to-zero importance. Buy an app for what it offers today, if it doesn't have what you want then wait till it has it. That missing functionality could get added tomorrow or a year later or the dev's priorities may change and he never gets around to it. It may be what you wanted or it may end up being totally different from what you wanted. It may be free or it may require an IAP... too many factors involved to make a future promise a meaningful purchase factor.
Apps that break on the next upgrade of iOS and apps affected by other apps - agreed no one wants that.
"In app purchases should we include those ?" <- not sure what you mean..? Yes if there are IAP-related sins then we should list those out too...
@DaveMagoo said:
App store?C'mon,it's just a store.I couldn't care less about glitches there as it doesn't affect my creativity in any way.Are you more interested in buying apps or being creative? ;-)
Regarding Jack:It' seems pretty much abandonned on iOS7.Just visit his homepage,he explains why...
@rhism cycler3d can't export or save your work. It's basically a $10.00 demo. I've complained to apple and they are still selling it. The app is also stuck in portrait mode on my ipad air when it should be in landscape mode. No response from the dev. This app ctainly doesn't deliver anything at all. On top of that the windows version of the soft doesn't include the vst dll like it is promised on the website. I will certainly not buy anything from nicholas lacoumette anymore. He's the person behind x-incarn, devine machine, krishna synth and fxpansion guru.
@Rhism said:
I was about to say this. When we ask developers for features or development schedules we should keep in mind that these things change, and it isn't their responsibility to keep us in the loop about their private issues which could get in the way of their public work.
Best advice ever.
Now, when a developer begins developing new apps while leaving their previous work unsupported/abandoned... then I've got issues. But even then, maybe it just isn't selling anymore. People can't work on things for free forever. Everybody's got at least one mouth to feed.
What uglykidmoe Said
.
@Simon I agree with you iOS 7.1 would be a lot more stable, guys didn't we go through this with iOS 6.
In some instances we need to cut some slack , the developers are humans to and sometimes they are glitches in codes which sometimes don't show up until release to users. I have a problem when bugs and problems are reported via forums or App Support and the developers keep pushing out new features without addressing the bugs.
Also some developers have Great App but lacks AudioBus or IAA, I also have a problem with this since some developers have the corporate policy that the don't want their iOS app to compete with their desktop App. If this is your policy then don't develop for iOS , stay in the Desktop world.
@paradiddle If cycler3d claims to be able to export/save then not having it a sin. But if it doesn't claim it then it's just missing functionality. Call it an inferior app, or perhaps that it's designed and marketed towards a different person / scenario than yours. Its ratings / reviews / sales performance should reflect that. But IMO it's inappropriate to say that the dev is disrespecting his users just because it doesn't have export/save functionality... as long as he hasn't claimed it or promised it. Same with AB/IAA/MIDI etc.
Now the missing VST DLL - that is definitely a sin. Claiming something then not delivering - not ok. Clearly he can't do that on iOS otherwise Apple would pull the app.
Wrt not allowing iOS apps to compete with desktop versions, any examples (even without names)?
@rhism the desktop version can export the loops why would the ios not? Seriously what app have you ever gotten that doesn't allow you to save your work? Doesn't make any sense. Btw the ios app has an export function, it just doesn't work. I know trueyorky over here already tried it and he pretty much came to the same conclusion. I've seen similar comment about it also.
I just though I should post about it so users don't shell out cash for something that is unfinished. It's too bad cut it's a cool looper with resampling functions on the fly.
Cycler 3D Free's app store description claims that Cycler 3D (the paid version) includes the ability to export. So if that doesn't work he should definitely fix it.
As for ability to save your work... yes ideally every app has that. But if it doesn't have it (and doesn't claim to) then that's just a feature the app doesn't have, not a sign of disrespect to users. Saving / loading / managing presets is a lot of work and requires a lot of code. If the app is intended to be more of a casual "toy" then it makes sense for the dev to not spend time working on save/load. Case in point: AB doesn't allow you to save your presets (yet).
@flo26. You can ask for a refund at apple, I did and it worked. I'm not getting refunded for the windows version though (standalone version works good but he didn't include the vst dll like mentioned on the site.). Unless he shows good fate, I will surely make it my mission to warn people about him or any new apps he will come out with.
@rhism Somehow I doubt he will fix it. I've checked what he did in the past and he seems pretty good at unfinished projects and dropping support pretty fast. Too bad cuz the guy is definitely talented but bad at customer support.
@Flo26 I'm guessing he does believe in iOS as a platform for casual game-like experiences, just not for serious music production. And his app reflects that, it definitely seems to be positioned more as a casual experience. But I agree, anyone who takes months to respond is probably not very user-friendly. Not to mention claiming export functionality when it's broken. Bad signs for sure.
@Multitouch - It's not just that app you were referring to but an additional app (lesser known DAW) that I believe a few others who have commented on this thread have also had issues with. It's like one right after the other in a one week period?? It gets to the point of like "cmon man, what the hell?". It's hard enough to get free time to jam and make music with work, family, gf, other responsibilities that once that moment has come, once I'm in that right mental space and vibe, I just want something reliable. And right now, many, not all, but many apps dont provide me with that reliable feeling. Again, there are some great apps out there and for the most part, generally the devs who post here frequently have been great with their apps. But yeah, this xmas holiday, two duds in a row for me at least.
Techno box 2 said it had IAA and then it turns out it didn't and they removed it from the App Store update description
Electrify NXT said it had midi sync and it turns out it doesn't work...a fix is on the way
In terms of bugs etc I think at least in my experience now it's the norm for all apps to have at least some bugs especially on ios as the very creators of the platform have released it full of bugs. It's also 50/50 whether it will have a serious bug or not that will seriously reduce your ability to want to use the app before it's updated. Cubasis & Auria are great examples of this.
Its a shame that we can sometimes be made to feel more like beta testers than producers/musicians.
I'm not sure this is off topic but it seemed relevant
@DaveMagoo said what I was thinking...Fortunately, the IAA disappeared just before buy it, despite the fact it's in my wish list long time ago.
I think there are situations where developers don't seem to do adequate testing of their apps, put them out and they perform so badly that you wonder if they ever even took a couple of minutes to test their app out on the iOS device it was intended for. Even if subsequent versions of the app correct the initial bugginess of the app, it may be difficult to regain the trust of the iOS musicians again especially when there are so many good apps out there and people run out of space on their iOS devices so quickly due to the iOS file system and storage structure that they're deleting apps to keep them functional.
Add in marketing miscalculations where you're trying to straddle the toy/game market and the iOS musician market, you can really get into a deep hole with your user base.
I would recommend new developers engage in forums such as this one to get a better sense of what their market is and what the expectations of their users are so they don't invest their time and money into developing an app that won't have any wings.
@Paulinko Thinking about it i suppose we need to appreciate that there is not a lot of money in the market for some from reading through this forum and seeing certain Devs posts/stories. That said I think with the prices set as low as they are on most apps it's a great strategy to beat the software pirates as it's just not worth it.
Also has anyone got TC-11 working with IAA yet as its selectable but has never worked ?
Couple of posts over at Palm Sounds re this.
http://www.palmsounds.net/2013/12/news-from-bitshapesoft_28.html
http://www.palmsounds.net/2013/12/news-from-bitshapesoft_1254.
So far the main points raised (regarding devs respecting users) have been about (1) performing adequate pre-release testing, and (2) not claiming to offer features that aren't there (or don't work). Seems like a simple enough list for anyone to get right, so it's disappointing that the negative stories do exist.
I'd add making it clear when you're freezing app development so that new customers know what they're in for. Also, answering support requests in a timely manner with clear information about plans/rough timescales to fix/ignore the issue.
What paulinko said was spot on!
"I would recommend new developers engage in forums such as this one to get a better sense of what their market is and what the expectations of their users are so they don't invest their time and money into developing an app that won't have any wings."
From a biz standpoint, I think a forum like this would be a goldmine to a dev. While I sometimes think I come off like a negative whiner, at least I'm voicing my frustrations and still giving it a chance vs say 20 or more of my friends/associates who MAYBE might give it one chance and if it fails, that's it, game over. They could care less if the technology progresses and will just stick to Pro Tools/Ableton/etc and will just have the opinion that ios isn't on the same level yet. They will never go on a forum like this to say what was it they liked or didnt like whereas that could've been 20 additional customers all ios devs here could've had and not to mention 20 more friends of each of those friends/associates they have, so exponentially 400 or more customers.
I would also like to give a shout out to the dev of MIDI Morphosis (secret base design I think) Everytime he has released an app, he has been very upfront about the limitations AND HIS COMPETITORS strengths. He's done several youtube tutorials that even though they're somewhat low budget, they're very informative as opposed to a well produced vid that doesnt tell me shit (pardon my language) or worst, NO manual or help section at all. I've bought many of his apps and personally always felt satisfied as my expectations were always managed. He's also given a lot of value via technical explanations regarding a variety of topics I have no clue about. Many of you regular devs on this forum have done so as well which is why I think your apps are great but i think the reason he stands out the most to me is that while I use beatmaker, audiobus, traktor (just to name a few) regularly, I dont use MIDI Morphosis that much (as I dont use MIDI a lot) BUT I still like and respect his work and will most likely support/buy his apps in future. Even recommend