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Best Windows DAW for ios work integration/ importance of CPU threads?
Hi, I’ve been burying my head in research over the last week or so as it’s that time where buying a new, functioning pc has piqued my interest. I switched music over to iPad years ago but now I’m getting a pc again, would like to make the most of it and wondered if people here could help me in regards to what DAWs are best for working between the two systems. I have an iconnectmidi4, so my real interest and questions are whether anyone records to a pc DAW using iOS music apps, and exporting tracks and projects from iOS Auria/nano studio 2/cubasis etc. I’m not so bothered about beatmaker integration as the aforementioned as I don’t make EDM and prefer traditional track based daws.
the daw has always been the power bottleneck in production on iOS, alongside big orchestral sample libraries, compared to pc so I’m excited to no longer have to pretend this isn’t the case to myself using various implements of self denial and water torture.
So anyway - do any of you use this kind of shared loose workflow, is it possible to export projects etc from Auria in particular but also the other main daws into any daws on pc, painlessly and chuck audio back and forth? Would love to hear from anyone with experience and lessons pre learned, tips etc,
My other question, is if anyone could advise me on the significance of hyperthreading in the cpu and number of threads or cores in relation to music production and maybe specific daws that might relate to my first question on pc. I ask because I am considering a Ryzen 2200g based system with 16gb ram. It’s a budget processor but a very good one, particularly compared to the current ailing laptop I own. I am happy with the other components I have researched but this is giving me some pause as I read conflicting reports on whether threading is useful - it seems best disabled in some places and others seems to help.
the Ryzen 2200 g does not have threading but is a quad core cpu. It costs a bit more to go up to te 2400g and I don’t really want to because the only benefit is it supports threading - 8 virtual cores. I have no idea what this means in real world terms in music production, Will I I notice/care? At what point or in which use cases does it start to be relevant if ever or is hyperthreaing still unreliable? Any experience knowledge would be much appreciated. I used to produce music on far weaker systems ten or fifteen years ago so I don’t know how much is just pc master race number autism on forums I’ve looked at and how much has any real world meaning (having to wait 2 seconds rather than 1 for a track to render doesn’t send me into the fits of rage and recrimination it seems to for some on pc forums but if my software is going to be unreliable or stutter when I have 40 or 50 tracks and effects etc running purely due to lack of threading I might have to think about things)
and sorry for the pc heavy content here! I’m just excited to open up my workflow between systems
Comments
I use a pretty fluid hybrid between ios & pc (win 10) ( Ableton 10), & am very happy with it. Modern DAW's all utilize multi core threading these days, so the more Cores/threads will always be better, unlike gaming where a cpu with a good single core score will be fine. I upgraded from an i5 (4 core, 4 threads) to the same cpu but the i7 version (4 core, 8 threads), and it was a very noticeable improvement. The Ryzen 2200g looks a little underpowered to me for a new build, i would definitely recommend the 2400g if you can afford it, it will make a significant difference to the usability of your DAW. I have no experience of those particular cpu's so am not recommending them as such, but if you are building a new pc for audio work go for the cpu with more cores/threads.......... I have a gen 4 Haswell 4770 i7 in an off the shelf hp business pc with 16 gig of ram & an ssd hard drive....it works well....Geekbench 4 @ about 14470 multi & 4231 single. Wouldn't say no to double that power tho! Such is life!!
The thing to focus on is "real time" performance - unfortunately, that's a measure of a combination of all things in the PC and isn't something that's published. Threads aren't automatically useful in real time performance (though they are in exporting, etc.) - more dependencies, including the DAW. One way to help is to get a CPU that's already highly clocked by default, which is why a quad core could possibly outperform a 16 core CPU in real time playback. DO get at least a real quad core something. 16GB ram is a minimum - ok to start, but try to make sure you get that as 1 or 2 sticks rather than 4 so that you have empty slots you can add to in the future.
This site might also be useful: http://www.scanproaudio.info/2018/10/19/intels-i9-9900k-and-the-coffee-lake-refresh/
You'll also want to avoid mechanical hard drives except for backups/long-term storage. Stick with SSDs... maybe one for boot/programs and a second one for samples, projects. etc. You'll also want some way to back up your data, like an external hard drive.
It's also worth spending some time getting parts (as you build it or after it's built for you and you replace them) that make it more quiet. Especially case fans and the CPU fan. Noctua makes amazing cooling, among other companies. But there's a price. So worth it if you can do it, though.
Any DAW can handle imported audio files/stems exported from iOS, or even recorded live via Studiomux or the like. If you don't have a DAW and want to get started sooner rather than later, use Tracktion 7 (it's free). You can then either upgrade to Waveform 10 (newest version of Tracktion) or go with something like Ableton or Cubase, the most popular for iOS users it seems (Studio One is also good). But at least using Tracktion 7 would give you time to demo the others and shop around.
I export out of Gadget and then mix and master in Mixbus 32c v5. Similarly, if I create something in Waveform, I'll export the tracks and mix it in Mixbus (saves on saturation plugins, etc.). I've never made a track using an iDevice real time alongside PC virtual instruments, though I have done one with the tracks mixed from multiple devices.
Thanks, both of you. Lots to think about.
When you say the difference was very noticeable when you upgraded your cpu, could you tell me in what ways it manifested? It would be helpful to me to know what effect the additional virtual cores have, like what parts of te workflow in daws improve and in what way. Sorry to ask for more help
All very good points above, but just thinking about a windows daw with the tightest ios integration- Ableton. Link really took over ios for all things sync related.
Interestingly Reason supports link as well, if the built in instruments, sequencing, and modular studio aspect, Is your thing.
Otherwise it means syncing the ios stuff to midi clock, which isn't the end of the world, it just is a bit more head scratching, and awareness of time alignment issues, where you need to compensate the time it takes for the daw to spit out the midi, and the audio from the ios to come back in, so it doesn't lag behind the beat.
With the i7 i am able to drop the buffer down to 64 samples while working at 24/96, which gives me a latency of 3.98ms. With the i5 the lowest latency i could achieve was about 6ms with the same settings. Low latency makes it possible to play, record & monitor instruments in real time whilst using vst fx, which is something I'd been trying to achieve for a while. 6ms is too large for me, whilst 3.98ms is unnoticeable to my ears. Apart from this, everything is snappier, stuff loads quicker, and i am able to run more of everything in my DAW. The i5 was o.k, but the i7 is much nicer. I gave the (identical) i5 machine to my 14 year old son, & it's perfect for gaming........
If you are interested i can recommend these off the shelf HP machines. They are practically silent, and run very, very cool.....small form factor pc's designed to be used in large office environments....so built with components that are built to last. Great little machines..........HP EliteDesk 800 G1 SFF . Mine works great Intel Core i7-4770 16gig ram, 500 gig ssd, 1TB 7,200rpm hd These can be found quite cheaply,& upgraded easily............
I strictly separate recording (IOS only) from the cut/edit/arrange/mix process (desktop).
My desktop DAWs are 2x SAWStudio (on XP and Win-7) and a ProTools TDM system on a Powermac G3/450.
(self confessing digital vintage fan here, all DAWs off the internet btw)
The XP box (Creamware Scope) and ProTools are both connected to an iConnectAudio4+ so I can track live on the iPad, including main effects (ideas about a track's sound are rather firm already while tracking).
The desktops are just fake outboard gear, receive from IOS, do their DSP processing and send back to IOS.
Valhalla reverb plugins are my only VST fx - everything else is handled by the DSP cards of either Scope or PT.
This allows a slim CPU footprint (on XP it's an I5 at 2.5 Ghz, 4 GB Ram).
For editing/mixing I prefer SAWStudio, which is fast and convenient for me and avoids any visual distraction.
Some people call it's GUI computer medieval poo, but I don't mind - it's fast as lightning.
Files are transferred by WLan using a local Synology NAS.
My only adjustments during the arrange stage are spatial and dynamic balance.
@wingwizard This is quite different from what you're planning, but shows that IOS integrates really well.
Might also be useful in a more general pov:
The method mainly works, because there's a lot of consideration about 'sound' before recording.
Eq isn't mentioned because I forgot about it, but simply because I rarely (need to) use it.
If I pick one of my 2 acoustic guitars, I know which of the 3 mics to use for a certain sound or style.
The same applies to each of the 6-8 reverbs I usually choose from.
It's a matter of craft to learn by listening and doing, failing, listen again, improve... ;)
Don't use batteries of EQs, Comps and mediocre effects - just cherry-pick the right plugins.
Less is better - because every little DSP process spoils the (original) signal... just a tiny little bit, but your 50 tracks project may easily accumulate 200 routines which may have few relevance for the final result.
As far as hardware is concerned:
the chipset of your PC board is more important than the CPU's clockrate, as mentioned above it's about realtime performance which no Windoze nor OSX box can do (simplified: the OS lacks the tools for it).
I'd rather rely on a chipset/CPU combo that's known for it's audio/DAW performance.
Thanks again everyone. I didn’t quite understand the first part of this lol (grateful as I am). You were saying for real-time audio it’s the pinnacle - did you mean having multiple cores/threads or clock speed of a singe core? As you later say it’s not
i really hated ableton when I used it, and felt like a pariah as everyone seems to love it, for the reasons you mentioned. I don’t make rock but I’m not a pattern/loop based songwriter except for drums obv, so it was a very sterile limiting environment for me. But then I also hated logic because of the gui and workflow. Kind of curious about bitwig as I’m into mpe. I love electronic textures and am into that but don’t like modern synth sounds - you know what I mean, standard stuff not experimental - or dance music. Anyway straying from topic a bit
ableton link seems to be a draw though - maybe I can use it. I just feel like I want to paint a picture and abletons trying to force me to play with Lego blocks instead whenever I use it. I’d be a bit more forgiving if it didn’t have a kind of pre club bar aesthetic. Just not my thing.
Thanks that’s interesting. I’m not sure what I’ll do as i won’t have much money to chuck at music so iOS is perfect for me in that respect, I’d like to do mastering etc through Auria and fabfilter. But I might master stems and put them onto a daw on pc as I go if Auria gets jittery - whatever anyone says, I find Auria to be the equivalent of carrying your shopping in a paper bag in a rain drenched afternoon, you’re just waiting the the bottom to fall through every moment and all your sounds to smash all over over the floor.
im just thinking aloud re processes and how to make the most of both environments, I could thenexport midi and use a better orchestral vst on pc. So I’d have recording stems to Auria or whatever, mastering in Auria in smaller sections, and then arranging, compiling and any orchestration or frills on pc daw.
i agree with you re effects etc btw. It’s not a popular view on a lot of forums but the producers job is to be quiet and be invisible and at the moment all I ever hear is 90 percent production, 10 percent song. Itsbreally ugly to me in the same way as garish photoshop filters, it’s all about what you don’t do, and delicacy, allowing the song to open and come through as fully and expressively as possible, bringing out its accents. For me production is too often forcing and adding elements, rather than backing off and listening and being a frame for the song that recedes and gives where it needs to to allow the song through. There’s a loss of subtlety in the world in general I suppose.
the same applies to vocals now. Can’t remember the last time a popular singer, particularly in the popular genres now, knew how to carry a melody Rather than widdling nasally or screaming all over the place like mr magoo on his driving test.
running OS-9 from a 1GB Flashdisk is a joke for sure (considering current machine specs), but it's got enough juice to provide the equivalent of 4 Eventide H3000 units simultaneously (it's main job). Keep in mind no audio data runs through the G3, all is processed on the 2 DSP cards in PCI slots.
Pretty much all DAWs have the ability to receive stems from other apps. That is all the integration I really use between iOS and Desktop. My advice is to look for the DAW that works best for you and inspires you to create music. If you are constantly fighting your DAW, you won't be making music. Don't choose something popular and complicated (even if it is popular), if it's not working for you. Personally, for various reasons (one of which is that it works with Linux), I use Reaper. But that is neither here nor there and won't necessarily be the DAW for you. Download the various demos and try them all out and then use the one you get on with the best.
Great advice, thanks, I agree
I use both PC (surface pro i7) running Bitwig. I tried Cubase Elements but at the moment stopped running it, although it would be my first choice of DAW. It simply wouldnt work with Studiomux audio recording. I needed to purchase Cubase Pro and a dongle etc. It was just too expensive for me. So BitWig did all I needed and the ability to be setup for surface was a real plus. I tried my complimentary copy of Ableton which I liked, but the workflow differences from Cubase iritated me and I gave up with it!
i use an ipad pro (12.9 1st gen) and use Cubasis and Auria. Love the ipad pro and all the excellent apps etc. I run Studiomux to the Surface Pro and its great.
I dont focus on loyalty to a system (PC vs Mac etc) I use both and whichever gets the inspiration and workflow going easiest I use for a project. But the flexability of both is perfect.
I have Kontakt with all my Sonicotour (sp) instruments and also purchased and use AmpleSound guitars which are excellent compromise to the real thing. i also use a Jamstik as midi controller with my CME.
I do have the iconnect 4+ but im working away from home at the moment and so did not carry it with me.
so in conclusion, PC with ipad and Studiomux is for me atleast VERY good and enjoyable to use in my small travelling studio :)
I just want to mention Harrison Mixbus, because it works well with iPads/Studiomux, and because there are great TouchOSC and Lemur controllers for Mixbus. It uses quite a bit of CPU when idle, but doesn't add up much when tracking and mixing. Every channel strip has EQ and dynamics built in, the mixbuses have tape saturation built in. Which is very convenient, you don't really need any plugins.
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Very true. I should have made this clear in my post.
Generally speaking get the best cpu you can comfortably afford, with good single & multicore performance.
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No it doesn't work, (no iDam equivalent ) hence the need for Studiomux, or a hardware solution.