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Comments
Prevent lawsuits.....
I do agree the vocal scale sounds more like just intonation to me but pretty rough recording.
It's interesting that the "out-of-tune system" turns out to be an integral part of the sound of the guitar for me.
it's a pretty fun system.
sorry, worded this poorly. (Although ethnographic recordings from around the world very quickly point to the fact that 12tet was far from standard. A good starting place might be the Secret Museum of Mankind series as it covers a lot of ground. Among the hundreds of tracks from around the world, a very low percentage of them are in Equal Temperament.)
you don't need to find old recordings.. just old music played in the old traditions. Indian classical music isn't in 12tet. It would be silly to use 12tet as it's modal music. Turkish classical, same. Gamelan music would sound pretty messed up in 12tet as well. Sardinian and Georgian polyphonic volcal music, oof those tight harmonies are what make it so powerful.
For a lot of music, 12tet is not the best solution.
It's a fine system for some music, but certainly not the end all be all some like to claim it to be. Some music cannot be played in this system.
I think by settling with 12 arbitrary pitches, we lose a lot of potential. if you think that's elitist.. fine. I think it's arrogant to suggest that 12tet is the king of all harmonic systems. If it is, I'll happily do my part to overthrow this absurd and lazy monarchy.
By lazy, I'm not talking about musicians tuning pianos. I'm not saying you are lazy. I mean collectively, we've seemingly given up on the problem of tuning and settled for something that's "close enough", because we haven't had to think about it much.. I don't play pianos and I don't particularly like pianos. I'm talking about 21st century solutions to tuning rather than settling with the one from one hundred years ago.
I'm talking hermode tunings, which exist on a few instruments..
and fluid tuning that can retune instruments in the same way that tempo is synced across devices (ala TuneUp by Audiokit), and midi controllers with very fine pitch control per note, bringing it closer to the realm of unfretted instruments or even the human voice.
for me the analogy still works, but I agree that it may not be the best analogy.
As you gentlemen I was thinking about this topic more often than usual, as we are in this very interesting conversation (although I cannot contribute much). What came to my mind - as an even better analogy - was language.
We have such beautiful and colourful languages, any language, be it Portuguese, English, French, etc., but today people often just use simple sentences and phrases for the sake of communication, only rarely for the sake of beauty. Which is also a bit sad. We, as humans, as a culture, often content ourselves with flat colours and shapes of something that has so much more to provide. Language has become something different, so as music has become something different. Music is a language.
@TheoryNotes: you tune pianos? My deepest respect. I would never even try to attempt to do such a thing.
Which explains why you and @palm have this different perspective. Like I wrote in my last post, it's the experience and surrounding that shapes our perspectives, and in that light it is almost a logical deduction that someone who is experienced in piano tuning must have a different perspective than someone who has a different approach to music like @palm.
I've tuned many pianos over the years to various tunings. I'm more excited about tuning harpsichords and organs and synths though.
Much respect to anyone who has to tune piano to nonstandard tunings. From what I understand of Persian piano music, they leave some notes in 12TET and tune others to the desired quartertones. In the late 19th century, pianos began to be available for sale in Tehran, and one of the first buyers happened to be a master of the Persian santoor.
an article on the tuning used for this piece - Dastgah Segah
https://majnuunmusicanddance.com/dastgah-segah-persian-music/
hot damn!
thanks for sharing, this is absolutely beautiful.
This is totally incorrect. I think perhaps what you could say is, if your song is modal -- and you intend to keep the bass droning with simple intervals all throughout... then sure. But even then be careful because as soon as you start stacking more notes and creating new intervals, new harmonic layers, or complex harmonies etc., you're going to be sounding extremely out of tune. This is why 12-tone equal temperament is superior, because it frees up a player to play in more modern styles with unrestricted freedom of expressivity.
It's not "insanity", that is a little dramatic! One could say digitally produced equal-temperament tones create a more "videogamey" type of sound. But remember equal temperament tuning/frets on acoustic instruments (guitar, piano, etc) is not as bad because of the instruments' various imperfections, subject to dynamics of the player's pressure/touch, complex resonances, etc. It sort of "tricks" the ear into feeling the music based on its dynamic energy and not be utterly obsessed with just one single element such as tuning (which is the point of good music IMO!)
Sure if we could create perfect tuning in electronic music using software, that would be really interesting; but we have to realize that the level of tuning for that to match what we want to be able to do with music today would involve highly complex, and potentially infinite layers of real-time mathematics. The harmonic series is very finely laid out, but we don't yet have the understanding of what happens with harmonics with complex music making.
And it doesn't even have to be jazz fusion or crazy audacious harmonic progressions or whatever. Look at something as old-school as Bach. When musicologists and avid fans of theory study Bach, they like to use Schenkerian analysis, which is great as it allows for one's command of musical analysis to basically support any argument they deem fit for how the music ought to be interpreted. It can be pretty cool for another person's particular analysis to open your ear to hearing a phrase in a completely different way; you are literally able to "see" what another listener is hearing. And in this style of analysis, you can analyze elements of music based on lower/middle/higher levels or multiple levels all at once to build an argument. Shit, you could even get experimental and as long as the argument is good and the analysis is sound, no one could tell you you're wrong that Bach secretly wrote the ending of the piece in the first three notes. Except then someone will point out something like, "ah, but in that era, it is commonly known that composers composed preludes in this way... blah blah." Anyway, I digress.
So my point is that although the idea of tonally perfected music is attractive, it is just near impossible and the notion should be swiftly let go of. It's simply not human to go through and make this kind of stuff automatic. If we want to perfect tuning, we need to make MIDI controllers more responsive and utilize things like aftertouch, etc. Or play analog instruments. Incorporate things that make tunings less noticeable is the key. But keep in mind if you're using multiple instruments, or basically making music that is more than just chants/droning, you're going to want 12-tone equal temperament as your basic tuning system.
It's been my experience that people who study ear-training in a formal setting learn to listen on many different levels and creatively just as one might do Schenkerian analysis. They don't obsess over temperament or even out of tune stuff. The more you learn to listen, the more you find you can listen to, and then particular recordings such as the RHCP in the video above are uniquely delightful wonderments. Sounds are just as they are. But yea, if its too videogamey (i.e. just a sequencer sending MIDI to software) it will definitely always have that low ceiling.
Actually its the opposite, having perfect pitch means you care less about 440
Not my experience, as long as the instrument is tuned it doesn't matter if its 440 or 441. If you are playing with other instruments then of course they need to be tuned to each other.
Exactly, 440 has no bearing on much. i can hear if a c note is 14 cents flat but if the whole instrument is tuned 14 cents flat its fine. It not like im going this sounds bad.
First, 90% of the folks in here couldn't do that if they wanted. Electronic music is nearly always very simple stuff, harmonically. Also, if you're playing complex chords and changes, then you're probably not staying in the same key for an entire piece.
Second, the question of whether a dense chord is "extremely out of tune" or not is exactly what we are talking about. Some people like those flavors. "Out of tune" is a subjective concept. There is no standard. The tuning machine clipped onto your guitar is a lie created to separate you from your money. There is only sounds good to me or doesn't sound good to me.
I think what you're referring to is relative pitch. As far as I understand it, perfect pitch is rooted in 12tet a440. With good relative pitch, you can determine intervals, regardless of the base frequency.
Yes, Persian piano music was influenced by music for santoor, because one of the first piano buyers in Tehran was a santoor player. Santoor is a hammered dulcimer. I believe it is played with only one mallet in each hand. No idea how hard it would be to double up the mallets like the modern vibraphone and marimba players do.
Must respect to those who have to tune pianos, and it must be a challenge to tune one for Persian style.
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Love this microtonal dreamscape.
Key shifts make it sound like warped vinyl in places; great vocal harmonies too. From the comments:
"First in E, then in F 'shat' (half-sharp), then in F, then in F 'shat' again and then back to E.
The coda goes to C minor instead of E."
There's a 24 edo fretboard on the guitar.
Very nice, thanks.
Gorgeous
Yeah that was cool...
Based on this comment, they pitch-shifted the keyboard part in a DAW after recording? So what they heard while they were recording is different from the final result.
"we're just pitch shifting the upper one (+50ct., get it?) inside my DAW"