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Was that exchange before or after Andrew posted here?
It was from yesterday, on his own forum. The things that make you go “hmmmmm”
I tried to reserve judgement until now but it’s becoming increasingly clear that Andrew isn’t acting in good faith. We’ve seen a pattern of him and Wes misrepresenting the facts and it’s looking more and more like willful dishonesty.
Stoermelder was talking about Matthew Friedrichs, not Vitaly (see "...to prove that Matthew is legally abiding by Rack's license"). Matthew has a bad history using Make Noise's IP without permission which you can read at https://community.vcvrack.com/t/postmortem-on-racks-gpl-relicensing/6253, but he has partially turned to the good side by releasing his source code under GPLv3. Vitaly has not released his iOS source code.
If that’s the case, I apologize. I was following the discussion about Mirack in that thread and must have missed mention of Matthew. .
It feels like the goal posts keep moving.
I’m generally staying out of this, but I have to say I’m puzzled. I read the entire thread that ended with @Vortico closing the thread on the VCV Rack forum. I didn’t see any “endless arguments that lead to nowhere”. I saw a civil information exchange and what seemed to be sincere efforts to understand and accommodate opposing viewpoints right up until the final post.
Could be I didn’t read carefully enough or that there are other threads, but from what I remember, the only stated reason for closing off discussion was @Vortico’s resentment over that platform being used as a way to promote Vitaly’s commercial product. That’s fair enough, but it does seem ingenuous to now say that the reason was because of acrimony.
But ... again, maybe I missed something. Doesn’t matter, I suppose. VCV Rack has the right to run their forum the way they see fit.
If the license for the open source code used in creating miRack requires the developer to release their code as part of the agreement, then the miRack developer should do so. I have no idea whether this is the case or not but it seems like @mifki should present his understanding of these circumstances.
I would have liked some sort of time table for when we might see VCV Rack on iOS, so it’s disappointing there weren’t anymore details about these plans from @Vortico.
The license in use at the time (for VCV v0.6 I believe) did not require releasing the source code and did not require permission to release a commercial product. It was changed in a later version (1.0 I think) to require both. miRack was developed from the earlier version. That much is not in dispute, though it seems that the VCV Rack developer would like for the more restrictive license to be honored anyway.
What details other than “an iOS version is not planned” were you looking for?
Don't forget that my source code for the rack itself, especially the changes VCV Rack could benefit from, are open. They are even physically separate in the project - closed-source iOS part linking to "rack engine" library.
I've just done a quick read through of what I could find of the available discussions on this and I haven't been following along anywhere. So, I really don't know the whole story here. But, as far as the code needing to be released or not, that comes down to if the code used was forked under the BSD license or the GPLv3. BSD is much more friendly to commercialization. GPLv3 is far more restrictive. It's up to the original authors what they want for their code, but you can't change it after and expect people to follow what you've changed it to for projects that have already been forked. Clearly, that puts too much burden on derivative works.
As far as the artwork goes, you can get into all sorts of discussions about what a derivative work is. The fact that the CC artwork itself is clearly a derivative work of physical objects that have their own licensing makes everything much more complicated.
@NeonSilicon thank you for sharing your understanding of the situation.
If that’s the case then, it seems the miRack developer isn’t obligated to release his iOS source code. Perhaps it’s then a case of the VCV Rack developer having some open source code license remorse for the earlier version?
It’s easy for me to speculate that the miRack developer wouldn’t have been willing or able to develop his app if he would have needed to release the iOS source code?
Given the amount of acrimony we’ve witnessed between the two developers, I hope it reaches the point of agreeing to disagree. As others have mentioned, these sort of conflicts will only end up negatively impacting their respective user bases if there isn’t some sort of consensus reached.
miRack was forked from the BSD licensed code.
On that point you’re safe, though willingness has nothing to do with it. The GPL licensed fork didn’t exist at the time. The license change is a recent one.
If it had existed, then without a written agreement permitting it, it couldn’t be sold on the App Store anyway. And based on what we’ve read, permission wouldn’t have been granted.
I know everyone wants to discuss the spat but I will reiterate that the goal of this thread was to celebrate an amazing initiative.
I posted this on Discord. Here are the new module announcements from JUST ONE DAY on the FB user group.
This is why I would like to see a full VCV port to iOS. The potential is mind boggling.
@gusgranite hopefully @Vortico is committed to bringing VCV Rack to iOS. On his VCV Rack forum post, he mentioned needing to raise $20-60k to create an iOS version of VCV Rack and didn’t list any sort of time table for when this might happen. With 150k users, that’s a large base for developing modular patches that other modular software platforms really can’t match. I have my doubts about miRack ever being able to have access to such a large base of modules.
At this point it’s a case of a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush for me as I use iOS and not a PC to create music.
That might be your takeaway, but you don't get to decide other people's takeaway.
My takeaway is that when you use words like "respect" or insinuate some ambiguous moral code, it seems more like a bruised ego than a legal matter. If it's a matter of respect, then I'm afraid you're out of luck. If it's a legal issue, then point to where the law was broken. I read the VCV forum and it seems like there's a dogpile on a banned user, trying to smear his name and make his intentions out to be malicious and thieving.
If you open a bakery and another bakery moves across the street, you have the right to feel disrespected, but it's usually within the rights of another. If they found some of your recipes online and modified them to suit their tastes, you might have a case, but you've got a lot of legal mumbo jumbo to sort through.
It's not so complicated though.. really all you have to do is make the better product and provide a better service. Yeah, capitalism sucks. Life's not fair. etc..
If you're so confident that mirack is an inferior product, then let it go.. I'm afraid this campaign to smear Vitaly isn't helping your case. If there's a legal problem, it should be clear. but the legal problems over the artwork have been rectified (leaving mirack much modules looking much superior imho).
Like others have said, I'm truly grateful for all the work you've put into VCV. You've poured your lifeblood into it and now you feel that someone's taken some of that from you. I get that. But I think your passion is now clouding your vision.
This is part of the game. You've learned a hard lesson in Business. The Behringers of the world are real. They aren't evil, (hate the game, not the player
) they're just part of it. If you want to take Vitaly to court, try to destroy mirack, go for it. I just think it will hurt VCV more than help it. The higher road would be to be better. Think bigger.
I like mirack as it's tactile. I spend too much time in front of a laptop, so mirack is somewhat more relaxed experience. I can curl up on the sofa and build a patch. Obviously, VCV is more robust and has a dizzying array of third party modules for much deeper delving.
But.. hear me out... with the advent of Sidecar, it seems that there is a possible bridge to a VCV on ipadOS without the massive expense of developing an app from scratch. This would also solve the problem of purchased modules, etc.. anyhow, just spitballing here..
@Vortico, What hasn’t been emphasized up till now is that the sheer interest in bringing modular to iOS is unmistakable! Look at the number of views the subject got on the VCV forum and continues to get in spite of you shutting it down (4 K views) and how about the views on these audiobus.us boards?
The modular and iOS public wanted it and now that miRack is here, the train has left the station, the toothpaste isn’t going back into the tube.
If we were to resurrect the late great Bruce Lee to weigh in on the matter, he might say “And now go pound sand my friend, go pound sand.”
Right, and that doesn't imply no other trains will follow.
There's always room for new apps, and I bet that hardly anyone here could resist purchasing a future VCV Rack for iOS with all free and commercial modules available.
Nonetheless, VCV Rack on Win/Mac is fantastic already and I can't thank @Vortico and the other developers enough for putting up such great software!
Been using it for more than a year to create audio clips for re-use in iOS DAWs.
a bit of politics, unfold on your own risk
)
there was weird mixture of socialism/communism in my country 1948 - 1989 ... believe me, capitalism is best -ism we have, there is no other -ism which would be more fair
Everyone just stop wasting time on this guy. He’s obviously done with the situation and has summarised his position in his ‘takeaway’. Let’s get back to talking about eg pulse and drambo 😂
How does one create this spoiler in a comment?! Haha I like it
just enter these two characters ">!" at beginning of row, followed space and then text
hehe, I was sort of being facetious (no system is perfect), merely nodding to the fact that nothing's really fair in the world. If you're gonna play the game, you're gonna have to compete.
@palms
yeah understant.. of course i totally agree with whole your post, you said it very right.. @mifki is not bad guy in this "rackgate" case in my opinion
aaaaand there we have it... it’s all about the attitude,
simply re-iterating your hugely simplified accusation, one that has been answered over and over despite yr adding extra , and it seems often fabricated, accusations when a rebuttal has been confirmed, and telling us all to ‘go home now’ .. well .. we are home here.. as a guest YOU leave a lot to be desired.
vcv rack looks terrific , i mean REALLY terrific.. but i don’t use windows or mac for music making.. all too expensive and slightly retrogressive in my book. you are really pulling a fantastic anti-PR stunt for yr product.. couldn’t imagine anyone doing it better. or are you working off the old school principle that ALL publicity is GOOD publicity?
btw. what ‘non-miracks’ questions did you imagine would be asked here ?
QFT
👍🏆
Let’s go @Vortico. Let’s get VCV on iOS as soon as possible!