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Have you tried this one? Fatar keyboard with hammers and PB/M wheels:
https://www.thomann.de/fr/native_instruments_komplete_kontrol_s88_mk2.htm?o=0&search=1575982202
That a great idea but i think mr linearlineman doesn’t want to use a mac/pc so a bit of a waist of the interface and kontact software.
Saying that if the keybed is really nice maybe it is worth it?
Not yet. I still love my synths and my Pocket Operators and nothing will ever make me put down my guitar
I think the main thing is that you have a chance to try it before you buy it.
I Unfortunately don't have any music stores close enough to where I live where I can try out gear. I'm happy enough with my Novation Launchkey 49 that I bought based on online reviews.
The cheap 'Nektar GX49" I got first, was unplayable (for me). I should have returned it and got my $90 back. But it seemed too much of a hassle at the time. So instead I turned it into a "science project" and made several "destructive" mods to the keybed by drilling the hinges and raising the key-control-board with rubber shims. It plays better, but I still hate it. The one thing I can't modify is hinge position, and that means no matter how much I improve the resistance or shorten the key travel, it will always take about three times more force to push down a key at the back, than at the front. I just can't re-learn to play that kind of "feel" in a keybed.
It's one of the reasons why I still have my old Korg M3 on a closet shelf. I have no room to set it up, it's too big. But it's got a great playable synth-action keybed.
I think back years ago when I sold my 1980's Juno 106, D50, and M1. All had great keybeds, and all would have made great controlers with a proper midi adapter. But I never would have imagined that a day would come when keybeds would be made not for playability, but designed to be as cheap as possible to mass produce, and stuff them in any gear designated to be a non-pro level product.
Maybe when people start out on these kinds of keybeds they can learn to play them. I've observed in every review of synths that have such keybeds. That the people demonstrating them tend to have smaller hands and never touch the back 1/3rd of the playable key area.
I like hammer action too. It's a feel that provides feedback because the key resistance lightens at the bottom of the key strokes in a distinctive way that lets you know when a note just played because you can "feel" the trigger point in the key throw. But I like a lite resistance hammer action.
I bought a Yamaha stage piano 10 years ago, and got unhappy with the heaviness of the graduated hammer action on the low end of the scale. I tore into it to discover Yamaha used steel rods that got progressively longer (and therefore heavier) towards the lower end of the scale. So I took a bolt cutter and trimmed all the "hammers" to the same length (Not recommending anyone try this, just saying I did it). The result was a wonderfully light non-graduated hammer action that was beautiful to play. Unfortunately the main sound board gave out a couple of years ago, and that was that.
I really wish someone would start a youtube channel for reviewing keybeds. I see plenty of controller reviews, but never any meaningful info about the keybeds.....
Like using a force gauge on the keys to measure the levels of weight, in ounces, it takes to depress the front, center, and rear of the key.
The distance of key travel to note trigger at the front of the key vs. the rear.
Does the key resistance drop off or increase towards the bottom of the key throw.
It would be nice to see each controller disassembled to reveal the keybed design, hinge type, and hinge position.
Show the hammer action mechanism function of hammer action beds.
Measure the key depress variation in Hammer weights at octave intervals along the key scale.
Like, really come up with a scientific method for measuring a comprehensive set of variables that describe keyed performance in a way that different keybeds could be compared.
Take that scientific method of measurement, and use it to gather data on grand pianos, and various classic synths.
With data like that, people could compare the keybeds they like to play, with other boards. It could take a lot of the guesswork out of shopping for anything with a keybed.
Heck, the main online musical instrument retailers could publish that type of data in their product specs too.
I feel really bad for all those beginner keyboard players who begin with a keybed that an average more experienced player would consider junk.
Here that person is trying their best to learn to play, having difficulty playing scales, arpeggios, and chords. All the while perhaps thinking it's them having no talent, instead of knowing that they have a crappy keybed that's just really hard to play.
I think it comes down to two fundamental principals... At least that’s what I’ve found.
For workflow, what I mean is if you sit down to make music with an idea in mind, or you start out with something basic and see where it leads you. Push or pull... For me, I’m a process/improv type. I want to discover something as I go. For me, ipad is, ootb better for that because of #2
2, for hardware, unless you are a keyboard player or something where you’re taking a traditional music instrument interface and adapting it to electronic music, then the gap come down to the immediacy of the interface. With hardware, you have to build your own. It’s more expensive, time consuming, and fuck me if I have to track down more buzz and ground loops!!! 🤪
Someone should create an AU for AUM that randomly interjects buzz, hum, feedback, hiss, etc until you smack/shake your iPad...
iPad is the best loop creator I’ve ever used, but I still need a hardware sampler to collect and combine the loops with. I’ll be getting an OT again some day for sure
@horsetrainer, PianomanChuvk has some in depth reviews of Kawai, Casio and Yamaha actions. You can also check out PianoWorld forum in the digital group lots of action discussions there.
That's good to know.
Thanks!
I get the knob turn 'stays where you want', solid, predictable results type of immediacy but I think there are a few strands of 'immediacy' described in the OP.
You have a bitchin' studio/room thing right? For me 'immediacy' is also the here now / do it / non-physical space constraints part. The few chunks of hardware I have are nice to use hands on but square footage is at a premium in these parts so my tiny desk is a dresser/drawing table/laundry hamper/breakfast nook most of the week. Sure, on the weekend I can set up a desktop/hardware project with everything set up and plow through for a few magical midi synced hours (which has massive potential) but I can't be waiting another five days to get my groove on again and by next weekend the breakfast nook is in chaos. Early in the morning before work moving hardware around / setting up cables while trying to stay quiet in the dark as the Mrs sleeps in the next room, oy vey! Some people have the space, i don't. But with iPad a few swipes on glass and I have rearranged my portable anywhere/anytime studio and can save practically infinite combinations that can be used anytime/anywhere.
Having similar experiences myself. Currently attempting separate setups; one for the times I desire to use my hands and ‘play’, the other being a more ‘programable’ in the box type (ipad).
I always thought to keep things intergraded, maybe not, will see.
Pros and cons to each, enjoyment is key.
Only one I have seen nail this is this...
I'll be honest, I hate when the GUI opens up a more detailed view of the knob/parameter you're already trying to control. It's a stop gap for a system not meant to be applied to what you're trying to do (IMVHO). Thor is like this with it's white fader slider thing, there's no reason I should have to have something obscuring my view except for the fact that the interface isn't designed for what you're trying to do.
(flame suit on, I'm in the minority I know).
I finally had a chance to listen to the Prophet 6. Wow. If I wasn't really going to be in-the-box with several of the top soft synths already plus a 100 effects/tools on my PC, it would be The One to get (sorry, Moog). However, I'm not going all-hardware. I have a monosynth (SE-02). So... unless Sequential or someone else do something amazing here in the next week+ with NAMM, I still plan to get an OB-6 desktop - and modulate it with iOS over MIDI, of course!
Gr16 helps me realize that my ipad IS hardware.
I was all set too on the OB6 till I saw the UBXa prototype, I had a Oberheim OBXa here for a while in the early 90’s before I got my Jupiter 8, and that thing was balsy .. being able to stack 2 patches gave me incredibly fat brassy stringy type patches. I’m hoping that thing surfaces soon this year or I may be with you on that OB6.
OB-Xa (original) = Curtis filters. OB-6 = SEM. Honestly, if I wanted Curtis filters, I 1) have Repro, and 2) would get a used DSI synth like a Rev2, and 3) Synapse Audio has an OB-Xa emulation coming soon, and 4) I don't want a keyboard version. That said, I bet the OB-6 is still 2x-3x the price... but I wonder if there'll be an OB-8 in the intervening "year or so" before the B synth is out.
EDIT: Rereading this, I sound a little like a d**k. Sorry. It wasn't meant that way :-(
Well ya likes what ya likes 😎 What kind of music do you play?
True that!
(also, I just edited my post - thanks for taking what I'd said in stride).
"Play" is decidedly a term I'm not sure I'd use, since I have no training or skill, but electronic instrumentals that often tend to be vaguely retro with a somewhat darker tinge. I never set out to sound like anything - I end up having made a loop I like, then pile on as much as it can stand before collapsing, and then stretch it to see if I can make a song. Often can't. None of them quite sound alike, since that's never my goal as I'm doing this for fun. Non-linked version to the last track I did as it's OT: open.spotify.com/track/07J8lYpavmoREJ17NX5oof
I'm pretty set on a Sequential analog at this point, barring surprises. I must say that if I had the space, an XD module + Argon8 module would be pretty impressive, though.
Before you purchase, make sure you get your hands on a KORG Prologue 16 first.
) that I had expected from the P6 were more present in the Prologue. A real surprise for me indeed.
I've played both next to each other and the Prologue was one of the biggest surprises for me.
Sound is a subjective matter for sure but the "analog warmth", "depth", "expressiveness" and "silkyness" (if these buzzwords mean anything to you
Make sure you're going to turn knobs a lot on both, just switching through presets might give you a false impression of the overall sound character!
If Korg made a Prologue 16 XD module I would have a very, very hard choice to make. I don't have space for a full size synth, only a desktop. I started out thinking I'd get the XD module but then made the mistake of trying the OB-6.
Working in iOS exclusively the past several years only grows my hunger for hardware.
@vitocorleone123 @Thomas this will not help u
https://www.sequential.com/product/pro-3/
I think of my rig as hardware. Ipad and the connected controllers are any less hardware than any of the digital/sample based hardware boxes out there. I love playing Samplr on the screen but that's where it all ends.
I see my rig as an instrument therefore expect to put many hours into it to make it sing the way I want it to. Also even apps on the ipad will require time put into them as much as any hardware groovebox.
I kind of concur when it comes to playing with several apps linked together or modular software environments like Drambo. Having patch cables would Definitely drive me insane. All the dust, inability to save/share patches etc etc.
Wow...!
I saw a post upthread and have to make this urgent message:
Do NOT, I repeat do NOT buy a Korg Prologue instead of a Prophet or OB-6.
Because
Ok. I was bad. I did it. I ordered the OB-6 desktop. Should get here in the first part of the coming week. No store in the Seattle area had one in stock (I checked with Patchwerks first because I'd been playing the demo model there) so I ordered one from Control Voltage in Portland.
I can't wait to use some of the iOS MIDI apps with it!
I guess I'd missed this thread but it's a great topic. I began recording in 1993 so the home studio was decidedly ALL hardware. From the Tascam PortaStudio 4 track to the outboard effects to the keyboards & sound modules. No plugins, no virtual Instruments, no $5 synth apps that blow your mind.
When I came into the DAW age and after college I got to go into some very cool project studios in Vegas. I saw them using ProTools like a tape machine, still using analog mixers, analog effects and analog keys. But when I got my first DAW set up at home I was disappointed. See, I didn't have a mixer, old LA-2A's and Moog synths; I had a mouse, keyboard & screen.
The loss of that tactile, touch response workflow took awhile to get used to. That's why when I discovered iOS music production apps and how close they were to professional plugins on my laptop, the game changed.
I could get hands on touch response and still enjoy the benefits of digital. I think good controller's can bridge the gap but to me if someone HAS to have a particular keyboard sound (a Moog or old Korg, etc) the best sound is going to come from hardware most of the time.
So I don't think iOS ruined hardware it's just how far do you have to go for the sound in your head. As a guitarist, if I want that crunchy, compressed Les Paul going through a Marshall sound at it's best, getting a '59 Les Paul & a primo valve Marshall isn't in my perview, lol. I have to try my best to make my Epiphone Les Paul and my Fender tube amp or amp simulator (like the great ToneStack) sound as close as I can get it.
I feel it's the same with iOS synth apps vs. hardware synths. If you HAVE to have a real ARP sound and can A/B test the two and tell the difference 100% of the time then you may want to rent an ARP. If you want that sound and can get really close to it on an iOS app there you go. Both can thrive it's just what sound you HAVE to have. And some cheap hardware like Teenage Engineering and some of the Arturia stuff sound badass. There's an option too of being hardware but not pricing yourself out to the streets.
I think both live together, maybe not peacefully all the time, but both can get great results.