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Best second hand Apple laptop & software option?
Hi guys,
Any views on which model of current or past Apple laptops is the minimum (I.e. cheapest) I should consider for a second hand purchase, capable of running the current version of Ableton, as a dedicated music only workstation? I currently do almost everything on my 2018 iPad, and the alternative alternative, would be to get another of those, using one IPad as my synths/sound sources and the other as my DAW, but I’m trying to think small, portable, record anywhere, but without some of the IPad limitations... so the idea of just a laptop and a mini midi keyboard appeals.
I’m looking for the best bang for buck, so: the oldest model/smallest form factor/lowest spec/lowest price? I’ve said Apple because it was the frustration of trying to do music on my PC which drove me to IPad in the first place (I want the ‘it just works’ thing) and I’ve said Ableton because I have a launchpad mini and I like the clip launcher thing, but I’m open to alternatives on the software front. All suggestions gratefully received.
Comments
Did you have windows 10 when you where making music on PC? PC is a far far cheaper option than mac for music. I dont have any issue with Ableton although i always use a audio device with it.
Not an easy question... maybe if you set a limit with money... let's say how much... 800€?
From mac mini late 2012 (usually full memory and ssd upgrades less than 500€ and mbp late 2011 maybe for those 700-800€ maybe less (and both i5 and some upgradeable)...
but also saving a bit (until NAMM2020 to be sure there is no machine around the corner) and look into mpc live, Akai force, Mc707, Pioneer djs1000, oktatrack... there are some options but never a easy question.
Don’t forget As far as hardware samplers are concerned the Isla SP2400 is due a January drop too !
Hi @[Deleted User] @TheDubbyLabby @CRAKROX, I already have a powerful 17” Alienware PC laptop running Windows 10, it can handle Reaper, Ableton, etc - I just hate using it for music. Everything about trying to configure MIDI on pc drives me mad/never quite works with hardware/ is a pita. Not interested in hardware workstations for the opposite reason. They seem mostly geared to EDM, and enforce a beats/bars/patterns, organized way of working which is too structured and too groove orientated for me. I’m not a musician, I rarely use beats or recognisable chord progressions, or other ‘song’ elements and my amorphous ambient noodlings need as wide open and flexible a way of working as possible. For this reason, the clip triggering with timeline available in Ableton seems ideal,I just don’t want to hack through it on PC. (Tried Ableton Lite on it, got frustrated). I did think about the Mac Mini, but a laptop would let me noodle from the sofa, bedroom, wherever. So -smallest/oldest Apple laptop out there capable of running the latest Ableton without compromise remains the question.
Hackintosh?
If you're fine with being a bit restricted in how many plug ins you can use, pretty much any Apple laptop from the past 10 years will work I suppose. I've been using Live since version 4, and the laptop I had back then was slow as can be compared to what we have today. Never slowed me down.
If you're interested in sofa and bedroom use, then a Macbook Air would be pretty handy I think. One thing to watch out for is what is the latest operating system that the laptop supports. Newer versions of Live tend to require a pretty up to date OS, so you might run into some incompatibilities there.
@Tarekith : yep, that’s what I am asking - what is the oldest, smallest Apple laptop, that is nevertheless capable of running the latest standard version of Ableton (and, what, therefore, is the minimum OS/hardware spec that requires?) I bought my last phone, a secondhand iPhone 6S on the same principle, as that was the oldest iPhone that had both a headphone socket but was also capable of running the latest Apple OS. That’s the second hand sweet spot I’m trying to replicate right here.
@[Deleted User] : that sounds like adding complexity, not reducing it. (Spoken as someone who ran Spectre, a ‘hackintosh’ Atari ST back in the day using Mac roms on a circuit board.) Back then, dealing with the complexity was part of the fun. Now I just want the damn thing to work, and get out of the way
If macbook air is the target then search i5/i7 at least 8gb of ram and the bigger ssd you can afford as specs combo. My old late 2012 mac mini still can upgrade into Mojave and works with Ableton 9/10 quite well (I use it to finish songs more than producing on it).
You also wrote that you want to run the latest Ableton version.
Audio loops and tracks shouldn't be a problem.
Do you just want to run it like that or will you also want to use virtual instruments?
How many?
Low spec and virtual instruments don't go together well.
Always buy Windows if you want to work within a budget, learn to set it up and it WILL run better than any comparable Mac and is much easier to organise too.
That said, the 2012 pre retina MBP i7 or the 2011 if you disable the AMD GFX chipset are the go tos, they both have upgradability.
But even then, personally I always keep a Windows machine as my main machine, even if I have more Macs than PCs.
@rs2000 : I’m happy using the iPad to host all virtual instruments, so the laptop is purely to drive the instruments via (hopefully) usb MIDI and record the results.
@Turntablist : I agree that a pc is always cheaper, the catch is that ‘properly set up’ bit. As I mentioned I tried using my pc laptop for that, and just ended up spending more time updating drivers and downloading updates and trying to resolve clashes of this and that than I ever did catching an idea, so that I literally gave up, and bought my first iPad. I still have a beast of a PC laptop, a top spec three year old 17” Alienware gaming laptop. It sits in a cupboard, mostly.
I have made more progress with music just using an iPad this last year than I did literally in three decades prior (and I started with the Steinberg Pro 16 cart for my state of the art Commodore 64). Indeed, it is precisely because I have achieved so much with the iPad that I now feel growing pains to where the iPad DAWs I have (Cubasis & Nanostudio 2) feel a little too clunky and compromised, or at least opaque/convoluted in use for my, um, ‘method’ which tends to involve organising chaos and auto generation by audio loop editing and punch in/outs.
So all I ask of a laptop now is that it take some of the DAW load off the iPad when it comes to arranging/‘performing’ a mix of drop ins, fader automations etc, and then mastering. I, perhaps naively, believe that because music is woven into the dna of the Mac OS in a way it just isn’t on pc that this will be a fairly transparent and bulletproof one time ‘Install Ableton: now play’ setup which will play nice with my iPad apps and small collection of Volca and Behringer synths. Though of course I could be wrong...
@TheDubbyLabby : now you are talking.
That’s the specific info I’m looking for. I’ve now got a link to the Apple list of Catalina compatible devices. I reckon I can take it from here. Thanks all!
@Svetlovska I think the 8gb ram is only for the 13" models but not sure... my mac mini is 16gb ram so also not true sure about performance on these. Search for the most powerful you can afford and check for user reviews (even ask at Ableton forums maybe?)
Good luck and share your findings please. I was doing more or less the same before buying the mac mini (bad experience with old macbooks and batteries made me very conservative on this) but I have some friends with the old pre-retina @turntablist pointed and these are well aged machines.
Cheers!
Until recently I’ve been using a MacBook Pro 2009 with 4Gb Ram and an SSD. I’ve done a few bits and pieces with Ableton, Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro X and had no issues. Just today I’ve recorded 8 tracks of audio with couple of effects simultaneously with no issues. I know not much but not bad either.
Last month I bought another Pro, this time 2012 2.9Ghz i7 for £250 and upped it with 16Gb ram and an SSD. It handles logic better but I’ll let you know how it’s doing when I’ve done some mixing/mastering. I’d imagine it will be fine.
So for the total of £370 I have a system that should keep me future proof for another 5 years. I reckon you can easily work it out for under £500. I’ve insisted on earlier models because of FireWire port as I have a FireWire interface but I guess you can get more recent models for not much more on eBay.
@supadom : excellent intel, thanks! I am drawn to Ableton because of the clip launcher function, but is there anything that says Logic or another alternative would be better? My must have is the ability to spontaneously and interactively make then ‘play ‘ a selection of sampled audio clips ranging from a single hit to lengthy loops , drawn from the tracks in the timeline as seamlessly as possible and have that recorded back into the conventional timeline. I know I could use the Launchpad app alone for some sample triggering (or GR17, or BeatHawk, all of which I have) , but these all involve detailed ‘prep’ - they don’t have the easy back and forth spontaneity with the audio timeline that I’m looking for. Thus far I’ve been achieving this in Cubasis by copying a single loop or hit from the timeline into the cut and paste clipboard, then pasting it back into the mix live as the play head moves along the timeline, but this is obviously limited to a single sample at a time, rather than having a palette to draw from.
Bitwig has clip launcher. Infact its really good.
Video is from 5 years ago.
@[Deleted User] : aha, I did not know that. I’ll check it out. Thanks!
For this workflow, Live or Bitwig are the two most appropriate candidates for sure.
I don't own Bitwig but its new modular environment looks more inviting than Max4Live but it's naturally not as flexible. Depends on what you prefer.
Live Suite has fantastic effects and instruments (including physical modelling) with boring but functional and accessible UIs. Again, a matter of preference.
Bitwig has good touch support so for completeness' sake, I'd like to hint at the option of a second-hand Microsoft Surface tablet for the same price as the Macbook you're considering, running Bitwig.
One thing to look out for is that the new machines from apple come with MacOS Catalina, which is strictly 64 bit. That might not matter to you, but for me it’s a reason to keep my 2012 mbpro on mojave instead. I use some no longer supported software and hardware which will not get firmware updates for Catalina. YMMV, but it could be a consideration.
Reaper has the most advanced clip launching in the form of a paid add on called playtime, it is in fact much more than a clip launcher and can indeed launch anything (clips, projects, videos, images, actions, effects etc etc)
It is also the most efficient host available.
Catalina support is available unofficially on many older machines and is near enough as simple nowadays as an official update to install.
If you struggled setting up a PC and then disabling updates (and there is no disrespect meant here) computers are not really for you, go and buy the latest Macbook you can but make sure it has a huge huge hard drive or SSD, if you struggle setting up a Windows machine you are unlikely to keep a Mac tidy (Which is much more work than anything on Windows because it is all done manually)
Having an alienware in a cupboard is criminal, message me for my address and i will look after it for you.
Reaper may be the most efficient and i agree its very cool but it isnt the most user friendly experience for some people, if cost is an issue then reaper is indeed a no brainer.
@Turntablist : fwiw, I was building my own PCs from individual components 30 years ago, I’m probably the only person you’ll ever hear of who owned an Atari ST laptop which I was running as a Mac using the Spectre rom package, I created what was probably the first all digitally published magazine in the UK, I used to do desktop publishing for a living on my own Mac II cx, I typeset and published books using an Atari ST, and in another life for the best part of 10 years I used to review music technology in a nationally available magazine I was the editor of; and, before the internet was a thing, was filing my copy from NAMM in Los Angeles and the Frankfurt Music Messe using an acoustic modem and cix. ( you may need to look those up). But yeah, you’re right: computers, or rather PCs, are not for me. Not if I want the damn thing just to work, and get the hell out of my way.
I respect your wishes but I use a PC and Ableton, i hit the Ableton icon and it works no problem on Windows 10. There are no issues and the same with Bitwig. Just for the record 👍