harmony, chords and the drummer's dilemma

Gravitas

I will add that sometimes it good to have a listen to other composers.
For instance Stewart Copeland, the drummer from The Police, went on
to become an award winning composer, another one is Jack DeJonette
famed for his drumming is also an accomplished composer and pianist.

All good stuff.

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

Here's a contrarian take: You don't need to know any harmony at all. Most of the traditional music made east of Italy and south of Russia doesn't use harmony at all. Melody and rhythm suffice. Usually they stay in the same mode for an entire piece. This makes chords and polyphony easy. So long as all the notes are all in the same scale, it will sound good.

McD

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
Here's a contrarian take: You don't need to know any harmony at all. Most of the traditional music made east of Italy and south of Russia doesn't use harmony at all. Melody and rhythm suffice. Usually they stay in the same mode for an entire piece. This makes chords and polyphony easy. So long as all the notes are all in the same scale, it will sound good.

Good point. Many people prefer music that doesn't have traditional harmonic devices.

[Deleted User]

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McD

@SimonSomeone said:
I learned as a teenage...

That repetition is the key to turning knowledge into habits.

[Deleted User]

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[Deleted User]

oh god what happened. I entered into some crazy multiple post hell

[Deleted User]

I learned as a teenager when my guitar teacher told me he worked out songs by listening to the bass. Find the bass note, and the chord will be some variation on that note. That helped develop my ear, I'd rewind the cassette over and over, trying to match the bass note with a guitar note. That worked till I heard a line the went E, F, F#. I could hear that the E was major (minor sounded wrong), and that the F# was minor... but neither F major or minor sounded right. The next lesson, he told me that sometimes the bass will play another note in the chord, in this instance, the 3rd, so the chord was actually a C#.

Is this irrelevant? Maybe, but i'd say the best thing you can do is listen hard to things you find fascinating and try to work out out WTF is going on. Start super simple, with some rudimentary knowledge of basic scales and major minor chords and maybe some extensions like 7, 9 etc... When you hear something, try to work out what chord is playing, and start incorporating some of those moves in your own work.

Also if you have a melody, try and harmonize it with unusual chords for the key. Here's a concrete example. the last 3 notes of "the long and winding road" (transposed to C for simplicity). 'Lead me to your door - A A B C C, the chord under the A is Dm, under the B is G, under the C is C. You could change those chords to D7, E7, Am or even D7, E7, F9, and it make the same melody sound different. Or Dm/C, G/B, Bb11. Or something sillier like F# half diminished, B7, G# major 7. In each of those cases, the melody note is in the chord.
(I think anyone playing these chords to that song should probably be spoken to sternly, but I'm just using it as an example.)
If the melody note is G and the chord you are playing is a C, does it sound cool if its minor instead? or a 7th? or maybe an F9 or some other chord where the G note is an extension of the chord. Like G# major 7 for example.

And there are some forums that will help you with questions. I have sometimes asked and answered questions at the theory forum at KVR. There are some very knowledgeable people there, and whatever the question, it'll probably end up in an argument, but if you are humble and prepared to do a little work you can definitely learn things there. There are probably better ones than that out there too.

So my advice is: enquiring brain, listening, lots of playing around (preferably on a keyboard), asking questions. an App? maybe, but I have my doubts.

here's a vid of those chords in the order i wrote them.

Artj

(long post, sorry!) Some more suggestions for those who have problems with finding proper chord progressions for your music.

• First, this assumes that you know the 7 diatonic chords in major and minor keys. Since there can be a few different ways for this, let's assume you use the following system. Examples in C major and A minor:

C major: I = C, ii = Dm, iii = Em, IV = F, V = G, vi = Am, viiº = Bº. All are white keys on keyboard
A minor: i = Am, iiº = Bº, III = C, iv = Dm, V = E, VI = F, viiº = G#º. G# in V and viiº. For III, this should be in as well and, if so, The minor key chords are constructed from te harmonic minor scale. The III would be III+ (C+), but in normal usage, C major is easier to use, to hear, and to sing. Also since A minor is derived from C major, it's good to have C major chord as a part of A minor key.

Then, use these few guidelines:

• Chords usually have a tendency to go down a perfect 5th (5 letters, 7 semitones) or up a perfect 4th (4 letters, 5 semitones, you end up with the same progression). Usually, this follows the notes of the scale. When a perfect 5th progression is not possible due to certain notes in a scale, then a diminished 5th is substituted (down/up 6 semitones). For example, in C major, if every chord moves down a perfect 5th (with one diminished fifth), it'll be:
  C - F - Bº - Em - Am - Dm - G - C

• It's helpful and simplifies things if you think that there are 3 harmonic functions: tonic (T), subdominant (SD), and dominant (D).
  In C major:
  tonic = I (C), with vi (Am) and iii (Em) as substitutes.
  subdominant = IV (F), with ii (Dm) s a substitute.
  dominant = V (G), with viiº (Bº) s a substitute.
  Then, remember this: tonic can go to any chords, but there is a tendency to go to the subdominant; the subdominant has a tendency to go to the dominant, and lastly the dominant has a tendency to go to the tonic.

Examples:

C - G7 - C
I V7 I
T---D-->T

C - Am - Dm - G
I vi ii V
T-------->SD--->D

More complicated example:
Something (The Beatles)
C - Cmaj7 - C7 - F - D7 - G - Am - AmM7 - Am7 - D - F - Eb - G/D - C
I I7 V7/IV IV V7/V V vi vi#7 vi7 V/V IV bIII V6-4 I
T----------------------->SD------------->D-->T----------------------->SD--------------->D----->T

Many chords are not directly in C major, but you can see that C7 travels down a perfect 5th to F. Likewise, D7 down a perfect 5th to G. The Eb toward the end, together with the G major chord with D in the bass, acts as a passing chord (creating a scale in the bass), and thus is not important functionally. So, if you consider simply the bass, you can see the T-SD-D-T function easily, though the actual chords are more complicated.

This is just a statistic of most harmonic progressions in what people called classical music (from the 17th to 19th centuries), and some new music conforms to the progression. It creates a sense of fulfillment because the progressions follow more or less the natural tendency derived from the overtone series. (G is the most prominent overtone of C, therefore G - C; dominant - tonic, etc.)

Of course, when you use this concept in modern music, you need to adjust appropriately. Pop/rock music grows out of jazz and blues, where a sense of fulfillment may not be the requirement. If you want to represent sorrow, disappointment, for example, it might be well to reverse the progression, from T-SD-D-T to T-D-SD-T:

Across the Universe (Beatles): Lennon sang "nothing's gonna change my world," but you know and he knew that it's not true...
C - G(7) - F - C....
I V7 IV I
T---D ? SD T

Lastly (really), it's just a theory, some statistic of past music. It's not a rule. If what you're doing sounds great, then that's all that matters, although I'd say it's good to know the normal practices just so you know that you're doing regular stuff or something unusual. 👍

(Edit: damn! my well-spaced Roman numerals is gone after the post is formatted. Sorry folks. Hope you can still understand it!)

royor

@McD said:

@Krupa said:
I guess that’s just how it rolls and I shouldn’t worry too much about correctness or rules of harmony or stuff like that, cheers man 🙏🙏

There are rules based on musical conventions and genres but I say "break all the rules" and trust your ears to tell you when something moves you and likely would move "your audience": the people that hear the same sounds and get excited by the feeling evoked. Developing a musical personality is a good way to build an audience that likes the things you like in harmony choices.

Very much what I follow.. Let your ears guide you..
That’s why I love altered/open tunings on my guitar(s).. Every tuning ends up being an empty canvas..

Maybe all the open strings sound fantastic as a chord.. then you add a couple fingers here + there.. following what your ear wants to hear.. you’ve never played a chord like this.. EVER.. change the tuning of even just 1 string and it’s a whole new ball game.. tune that 1 string to make it easier to play a chord.. it’s an endless game that I wouldn’t trade for any other instrument.. it can be as unique as you are..

As @McD mentioned earlier about the slash chords + moving the bass notes around until something clicks.. the best part of open tunings (for me) is that I try to keep as many open strings ringing as I can.. that’s the whole point.. so moving bass lines over the same ringing strings is critical to how I write on the guitar.. (can be transferred to Piano as well)..

Pete Townshend is amazing at changing chords under the same bass note.. he’ll play the open A or D string and then play a myriad of triads underneath that droning string.. when you hear them moving along, it sounds fantastic yet some of the individual chords would be very “outside” of the harmony, never mind what may actually sound pleasing to the ear.. like neighbour tones in a scale.. you can do the same thing with chords.. it’s where you land that will get noticed.. anything along that path is open season..

I’ve got so many songs with such different tunings.. I couldn’t even begin to tell you what the chords are or even what key I’m in.. and I truly don’t care or need to know.. the only thing I need to remember is what tuning + what fingerings I used for the chords.. the rest.. my ears (mostly) and fingers (somewhat) guided me the entire way.. play a shape up +/or down the neck.. change to another shape.. rinse + repeat..

McD

@Artj, Excellent summary of traditional harmony theory. One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is voice leading in your chords:

C - Cmaj7 - C7 - F

This segment of the Beatles tune works because the top note is a descending chromatic scale = C -> B -> Bb - A (being the 3rd of the F chord)

@Artj said:
(Edit: damn! my well-spaced Roman numerals is gone after the post is formatted. Sorry folks. Hope you can still understand it!)

To keep the correct columns in text use the "code" option in the header.

https://forum.audiob.us/uploads/editor/8x/x965lc7uksyf.png

Svetlovska

Finding lots of cool ideas in this thread (also an (ex) drummer here struggling with taking things to the next level.) Big shout out to @McD for this, which seems simple enough for me to try:

“Pick a root
Try major and minor chords over it to see if there are sounds that seem useful.
Once you find one repeat with a root that seems to follow in a way the is good to your ear and find a good chord over that one After 4 chords you probably have something worth writing a verse over.
Repeat to make a chorus that compliments the verses harmonic ideas.”

Telstar5

https://www.perfectpitch.com/relativepitch.htm

Artj

@McD said:
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is voice leading in your chords:

C - Cmaj7 - C7 - F

This segment of the Beatles tune works because the top note is a descending chromatic scale = C -> B -> Bb - A (being the 3rd of the F chord)

@McD: Exactly, thank you for emphasizing this important point. Also thanks for pointing me to the "code"! never knew what it is, haha.

Krupa

@Artj really good post, I can mostly follow even though the formatting got lost

This bit however confused me a bit, I thought the minor came from natural minor, and harmonic minor was more a derivative of that…

“ The minor key chords are constructed from te harmonic minor scale. The III would be III+ (C+), but in normal usage, C major is easier to use, to hear, and to sing. Also since A minor is derived from C major, it's good to have C major chord as a part of A minor key.“

McD

@Artj said:
thanks for pointing me to the "code"! never knew what it is, haha.

Programmer's need to protect the indentation when they post "code".
For example:

public class StringExample
{   public static void main(String[] args)
    {   String s1 = "Computer Science";
        int x = 307;
        String s2 = s1 + " " + x;
        String s3 = s2.substring(10,17);
        String s4 = "is fun";
        String s5 = s2 + s4;

        System.out.println("s1: " + s1);
        System.out.println("s2: " + s2);
        System.out.println("s3: " + s3);
        System.out.println("s4: " + s4);
        System.out.println("s5: " + s5);

        //showing effect of precedence

        x = 3;
        int y = 5;
        String s6 = x + y + "total";
        String s7 = "total " + x + y;
        String s8 = " " + x + y + "total";
        System.out.println("s6: " + s6);
        System.out.println("s7: " + s7);
        System.out.println("s8: " + s8);
    }
}

Same program without the "code" block:

public class StringExample
{ public static void main(String[] args)
{ String s1 = "Computer Science";
int x = 307;
String s2 = s1 + " " + x;
String s3 = s2.substring(10,17);
String s4 = "is fun";
String s5 = s2 + s4;

    System.out.println("s1: " + s1);
    System.out.println("s2: " + s2);
    System.out.println("s3: " + s3);
    System.out.println("s4: " + s4);
    System.out.println("s5: " + s5);

    //showing effect of precedence

    x = 3;
    int y = 5;
    String s6 = x + y + "total";
    String s7 = "total " + x + y;
    String s8 = " " + x + y + "total";
    System.out.println("s6: " + s6);
    System.out.println("s7: " + s7);
    System.out.println("s8: " + s8);
}

}

kinkujin

This is all just fab. Thanks all for the time you’ve all put into the initial and further questions. The journey continues …..

Artj

@Krupa said:
This bit however confused me a bit, I thought the minor came from natural minor, and harmonic minor was more a derivative of that…

“ The minor key chords are constructed from the harmonic minor scale. The III would be III+ (C+), but in normal usage, C major is easier to use, to hear, and to sing. Also since A minor is derived from C major, it's good to have C major chord as a part of A minor key.“

I was unclear, sorry, @Krupa. What I meant is this: yes, normally the natural minor is the starting point since it's directly from the major scale. However, the lack of the proper leading tone makes it unsuitable for the music at that time when they needed the driving-forward feeling. This leading tone is a semitone below the tonic, as the B in C major. A natural minor has only the G, a full tone (2 semitones) below the tonic, therefore lacking in the leading force toward the tonic. So, musicians just raised this G up a semitone to G# to achieve this leading tone effect. Now, with the proper scale, they built harmony using this new minor scale, thus its name harmonic minor.

Many still feel that the augmented 2nd interval between the F and the new G# is difficult to sing, so they raise the F to F# to make it easier, thus the name melodic minor.

I should also add here too that just because many harmony textbooks use the harmonic minor as the main mode for harmony in minor keys, it doesn't mean that the natural and melodic scales are not used. On the contrary, rock/pop music makes much use of the chords derived from these forms. So, in essence, you can use both F and F# or G and G# to create chords in A minor. For example, the usual chords are Am, Bº, C, Dm, E, F, G#º, but the alternatives Bm, C+, D, Em, F#º, and G are also possible. These new chords are constructed using all possible notes from ascending/descending melodic minor (and natural minor of course.) It's just that the chords I cited in the earlier post are more common at that time. 👍

Krupa

Brilliant stuff @Artj , thanks for the detailed breakdown 🙏

GovernorSilver

Get the Piano Motifs app and have it generate melody and chords for you.

Then use the generated music as study material. Study why the music was put together a certain way.

The Piano Motifs dev has proven to most of us that he knows a thing or two about theory and harmony. His app is remarkably consistent in how it generates music - it never sounds like something just randomly thrown together.