What are the laws for samples and intellectuals rights?

Montreal_Music

Maybe you have already talk about this subject in an older thread, but I could not find it. What are the rules when you sample a song?

When Madonna samples the arpegio in « Gimme Gimme » by ABBA, she had to give away 50% of all dollars she makes with the song « Hang Up » that uses this sample.

What about Prodigy? Did Tom Morello receive any money by Prodigy for the right to use samples from RATM? Liam had uses so many samples in Prodigy’s song, how he had to deal with the intellectals right of his songs?

What are the exacts rules? If you recognise a song you have to pay and if you cant recognise the song you dont have to pay? I’m curious about how it works.

If I sample Trump and use the sample in one of my song, is that ok?

Thank you for any inputs.

AudioGus

The 90s were a looooooong time ago in terms of sampling. i talked to some artists who had sampling ‘shticks’ back then where samples were a big part of their material and they had to let it go and get into synths and sample libraries more and more because copyright owners started to catch on to just how lucrative the market is and then it apparently got massively overpriced for them. Not sure where things are now but it seems like just using sample libraries creatively can be a lot more cost effective and worthwhile, particularly if you are not a big act with deep pockets.

Makes sense that anything you can get away with you can get away with, but why put that much work into something that could be shut down?

Anywho, I imagine you can sample political figures easily enough though. Those idiots tend not to understand irony and will likely think you are promoting them.

colonel_mustard

If you record a recording, you can get busted. You probably won't be, unless... Success! Hey, maybe you will be! But either way, you're out there on the ice if you use something that's not yours.

The exceptions are over at the free sample fodder thread.

A technique that I've always been curious about but never actually tried out, is to build a track around a sample and then remove it. The ghost sample.

Samflash3

I might be completely wrong on this but my motto in making music is making music to share with the world. There's no guarantee that any sampled material will become a hit. But if it does become a hit, the legal bees come out of their nest to feast on money (err I mean honey). At that point, you should be in a place where you can afford a legal team (even if it is a single lawyer) and have them deal with that drama.

Meanwhile, use that momentum you get from the song, and the attention to promote yourself, your brand, and your other material. Make your next work even better than the first, so that people vaguely remember the first.

Even if a song is popular, it can't be the only thing that defines you (if you do want to be a public figure in music). If it is, then it isn't a bad thing...a lot of celebrities would give a lot of things just to fade out of the public eye. Plus, you would have had to at the back of your mind that you made a small impact to the world.

The best, and most recent example is 7 Rings by Ariana Grande. She gave away 90% in royalties of that song (I feel they could have negotiated it down, but eh...). Ariana made a phenomenal album, and it brought enough awareness to copyright. For Ariana, she's hugely popular, and while that hurts, it didn't stop her from releasing more singles.
If it were a new artist, they could use that momentum and gain a stronger following for their own work.

At least that's my perspective on sampling.

Or you could skip a ton of these legal processes and headaches and record yourself (or someone else that you mentioned) saying the same phrases in the best impression possible as the person, while using similar video contents. You can also remake the melody. Chords are (as for now) not patented. There's also sites where you can get legal samples.

Edit: Diplo says it a lot better (in less than a minute)

Gravitas

@WillieNegus said:
In regard to Hip Hop, sampling is King.

Artists and producers found a loophole to breaking big records and new artists by manipulating copyright law.

Basically, the biggest hip hop artists use the mixtape market to release hit songs that contain uncleared samples. Because they are releasing the content free, the original copyright owners can’t sue for shit. The most they can do is send a cease and desist for using their work but that typically doesn’t go anywhere as once something is release it’s out there.

Ex...Drake, arguably the biggest artist in the world became famous largely due to the success of his first mixtape ‘So Far Gone’. He never “officially” sold any of the mixtapes (he did on the street as did most artists back in the days of CDs) so there was no need in paying to clear the samples. That in addition to the fact he wouldn’t have been able to afford the samples he used nor would the artists he sample probably been interesting in letting him use the samples because he was no one then.

All this to say, if you’re inspired by something...use it but don’t try to sell it unless you’re comfortable losing any profit and possibly having lawyer fees you can’t afford.

However, If it goes viral, chances are those lawyer fees will end up being a drop in the bucket vs how much it would cost you in marketing, sample clearance fees to make a viral hit the “legit” way.

As far as hip hop goes, we don’t give a rats ass about sample clearances.lol. That’s an issue for the “squares” once the hits made.

+1

I might add.

When using a sample?

Always credit where it came from even
when it's anonymous unless your hip-hop.

If you're hip-hop?

Yeah, what he said.

It gives the vinyl heads something to do.

Fingolfinzzz

If something I make has samples I just release it for free. I wouldn’t really want to deal with the hassle unless I manipulated the sample beyond recognition and then I’d still be a little nervous

McD

Lately, the big legal suits have to do with a Top Hit sounding like or even worse.... admitting to being inspired by the work of a dead artist. It doesn't have to copy anything except the feeling of the original.

What this means is that it's up to the jury to decide of these rich fucks can afford to share the bounty with a dead musicians family.

Samflash3

@McD said:
Lately, the big legal suits have to do with a Top Hit sounding like or even worse.... admitting to being inspired by the work of a dead artist. It doesn't have to copy anything except the feeling of the original.

What this means is that it's up to the jury to decide of these rich fucks can afford to share the bounty with a dead musicians family.

I've been finding this a lot with "Marvin Gaye's" estate. Like, it's a great song but who knew that it would cause such controversy for musicians.

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

@WillieNegus said:

@Samflash3 said:

@McD said:
Lately, the big legal suits have to do with a Top Hit sounding like or even worse.... admitting to being inspired by the work of a dead artist. It doesn't have to copy anything except the feeling of the original.

What this means is that it's up to the jury to decide of these rich fucks can afford to share the bounty with a dead musicians family.

I've been finding this a lot with "Marvin Gaye's" estate. Like, it's a great song but who knew that it would cause such controversy for musicians.

That one sent ripples thru the industry. More than 200 top artists, labels and publishers even signed a petition against the verdict that ruled in favor of Marvin Gayes estate over Pharrell and Alan Thick for Blurred Lines royalties. Court upheld the verdict and they had to pay $5M. No sampling involved 😬. Now, $5M compared to what the song generated is a drop in the bucket but still....it was a landmark ruling.

Needless to say, Marvin Gaye, Prince, Michael Jackson, The Beatles, James Brown are among the few catalogs most people steer clear of.lmao

That one where Gaye’s estate sued a guy for using the I iii IV V progression was just as egregious. I really hate these fuckers for doing that. Our legal system needs a huge overhaul.

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

@WillieNegus said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@WillieNegus said:

@Samflash3 said:

@McD said:
Lately, the big legal suits have to do with a Top Hit sounding like or even worse.... admitting to being inspired by the work of a dead artist. It doesn't have to copy anything except the feeling of the original.

What this means is that it's up to the jury to decide of these rich fucks can afford to share the bounty with a dead musicians family.

I've been finding this a lot with "Marvin Gaye's" estate. Like, it's a great song but who knew that it would cause such controversy for musicians.

That one sent ripples thru the industry. More than 200 top artists, labels and publishers even signed a petition against the verdict that ruled in favor of Marvin Gayes estate over Pharrell and Alan Thick for Blurred Lines royalties. Court upheld the verdict and they had to pay $5M. No sampling involved 😬. Now, $5M compared to what the song generated is a drop in the bucket but still....it was a landmark ruling.

Needless to say, Marvin Gaye, Prince, Michael Jackson, The Beatles, James Brown are among the few catalogs most people steer clear of.lmao

That one where Gaye’s estate sued a guy for using the I iii IV V progression was just as egregious. I really hate these fuckers for doing that. Our legal system needs a huge overhaul.

Agreed. From what I’ve read the claim was as ludicrous as the verdict.

I was hoping The Bee Gees would sue the Gaye estate. By their logic Marvin clearly stole Let’s Get It On from this prior art:

luzvimindad

In my opinion, intellectual rights and copywriting laws need to be the same in all countries, and it will be really helpful for both intellectual property owners and users at the same time. When I worked for a lawyer company https://ucmjdefense.com/air-force-military-defense-lawyers-court-martial-attorneys.html that helped people dealing with multiple intellectual and copyright problems, I faced many cases when people got caught for not respecting intellectual property laws in other countries. Trust me. It is a big problem because today, you can download an intellectual product in 1 min, and many customers don't care about countries' laws and get caught by the police.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

AudioGus

@winconway said:

@AudioGus said:
The 90s were a looooooong time ago in terms of sampling. i talked to some artists who had sampling ‘shticks’ back then where samples were a big part of their material and they had to let it go and get into synths and sample libraries more and more because copyright owners started to catch on to just how lucrative the market is and then it apparently got massively overpriced for them. Not sure where things are now but it seems like just using sample libraries creatively can be a lot more cost effective and worthwhile, particularly if you are not a big act with deep pockets.

Makes sense that anything you can get away with you can get away with, but why put that much work into something that could be shut down?

Anywho, I imagine you can sample political figures easily enough though. Those idiots tend not to understand irony and will likely think you are promoting them.

It is a very grey area, it is easy to say use sample libraries, but so many people blindly use them and consider nothing of the licence they ship with , or further use that has no licensing.
Some sample companies licences are hilarious and cover you for nothing.
Now lets consider Madonnas producer uses a sample you use from a particular sample library that you purchase in good faith, who do you think is gonna get copyright strikes on YouTube etc, and you don't have any clout vs Madonna hahaha.
There is only so much more of this garbage the world can take before we hit breaking point.

The folks behind Stable Diffusion are developing an AI sample library generator. No idea what the quality of this one is like at this point but soon enough everyone who wants one will easily have their own massive custom original AI generated sample library.

https://www.harmonai.org/

michael_m

I liked Roger Waters’ take on plagiarism. Instead of suing Andrew Lloyd-Weber he wrote about him in song lyrics.

Poppadocrock

@AudioGus said:.

The folks behind Stable Diffusion are developing an AI sample library generator. No idea what the quality of this one is like at this point but soon enough everyone who wants one will easily have their own massive custom original AI generated sample library.

https://www.harmonai.org/

Did you sign up for that? Is it operational?

Poppadocrock

@Poppadocrock said:

@AudioGus said:.

The folks behind Stable Diffusion are developing an AI sample library generator. No idea what the quality of this one is like at this point but soon enough everyone who wants one will easily have their own massive custom original AI generated sample library.

https://www.harmonai.org/

Did you sign up for that? Is it operational?

I signed up, it just said thank you. I guess I’ll be informed about it.

AudioGus

@Poppadocrock said:

@AudioGus said:.

The folks behind Stable Diffusion are developing an AI sample library generator. No idea what the quality of this one is like at this point but soon enough everyone who wants one will easily have their own massive custom original AI generated sample library.

https://www.harmonai.org/

Did you sign up for that? Is it operational?

I believe it is a very small beta right now and I signed up a couple weeks ago but no word yet. I did hear (apparently) a tiny snippet of results that wasn't really the style I am into but it certainly did sound like it has the potential to make some good sample fodder. Given how fast Stable Diffusion progresses I imagine this is not too far off but it is a different kettle of worms so we shall see.

AudioGus

@Poppadocrock said:

@Poppadocrock said:

@AudioGus said:.

The folks behind Stable Diffusion are developing an AI sample library generator. No idea what the quality of this one is like at this point but soon enough everyone who wants one will easily have their own massive custom original AI generated sample library.

https://www.harmonai.org/

Did you sign up for that? Is it operational?

I signed up, it just said thank you. I guess I’ll be informed about it.

In a week or two I guess?

Edit: hmmmm, and this could be a thing...

Poppadocrock

Awesome that’s tomorrow. Thanksgiving for the heads up, I’ll keep an eye on my email.

AudioGus

Could just be them releasing the model open source for devs to then make stuff with but hopefully we get to play with something.

catherder

@AudioGus said:
Could just be them releasing the model open source for devs to then make stuff with but hopefully we get to play with something.

Looking at their GitHub repo I can already see some interesting open-source software there. Looks like it’s mainly Python / Jupyter notebooks: https://github.com/Harmonai-org/sample-generator

AudioGus

@catherder said:

@AudioGus said:
Could just be them releasing the model open source for devs to then make stuff with but hopefully we get to play with something.

Looking at their GitHub repo I can already see some interesting open-source software there. Looks like it’s mainly Python / Jupyter notebooks: https://github.com/Harmonai-org/sample-generator

Yah, I was looking at that. Not really interested in training my own at this point though, as that is usually fairly time consuming. I assume based on Stable Diffusion that this soon to be released something something will be a pertained model with weights but...(?) No idea if it will have any sort of 'prompting' or you just feed it existing samples to prompt off of. Bit of a mystery right now.

AudioGus

@Poppadocrock said:
Awesome that’s tomorrow. Thanksgiving for the heads up, I’ll keep an eye on my email.

https://twitter.com/EMostaque/status/1574141762750369794

Poppadocrock

@AudioGus said:

@Poppadocrock said:
Awesome that’s tomorrow. Thanksgiving for the heads up, I’ll keep an eye on my email.

https://twitter.com/EMostaque/status/1574141762750369794

Lol. I meant to put thanks too, but autocorrect added thanksgiving.