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Can you change sample key with Auto-Tune?
Can’t tell if my brain is broken thinking this way-
Can you use Auto-Tune to change the key of a melodic sample?
Is there a better way to change the key of a sample in iOS for use within Zenbeats?
Comments
No need for Autotune, You can do it right in Zenbeats.
Wim thank you so much for this
I am a music theory moron- correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t changing a sample’s key more complex than just transposing linearly up or down a couple semitones?
I thought that the key a song /scale was in was determined by a more complex non-linear relationship between the notes so simply transposing would result in some of the notes being off....am I an idiot/misunderstanding something extremely simple?
It depends what you mean.
Transposing from C Major to D Major simply means moving everything up two semitones. If you were thinking of changing to a different type of scale, say, from CMajor to CMinor, then that’s a completely different story.
Changing key is linear, changing scale is not.
Yes this is what I am speaking about re changing C major to let’s say e minor~ transposing would not work for this correct? Would Auto-Tune? I imagine the answer to this may also change if we are talking about polyphonic vs monophonic? To be clear I don’t care if it’s perfect preservation of the harmonic relationships such that they are identical ratios to the original sample, more interested in being able to get a usable result that doesn’t sound super awkward.
If you change from C Major to E Minor, you will be changing the character and melody considerably. It may sound ok or it may sound quite awkward. Only one way to find out.
Are you talking about the app Audio Tune? If so, yes, you can load it as an FX in Zenbeats and change the key and scale. I don’t think it’s going to work well though. It will depend a lot on the sample.
Strange request tbh. Most transposition is simply up or down, keeping the same scale type.
It’s definitely not going to work changing polyphonic material between scale types with Audio Tune. Single note melodies may work.
Useful for trying harmonies though. Simple transposition only works if you're not keeping the original line.
Harmonies aren’t usually in different scales altogether though. They’re usually made up of notes all from the same key, with some “accidentals” thrown in for color. I don’t think you’re going to find many pieces where half the parts are in C Major and half in E minor at the same time.
But - rules are indeed made to be broken. And there is only one note different between those two particular scales.
Now C Major and Eb minor together ... thad’d be some weird shit.
Would be nice to 'automate' the pitch as well
Then again it's possible to chop the audio into 1/16 segments and set their pitches individually hehe...
@wim @Samu @Jocphone thank you so much for this
Ok I am going to say something that is going to make a lot of people want to shoot me in the face so please be gentle, I know my way around DSP pretty ✨👌 so please forgive me for being a total noob with working with scales etc
My goal is to be able to take more or less any tonal sample from sites like splice.com and toss them into a project and make them e-minor- I am lazy, dumb, and if it’s not quick I’m just not going to do it, so I am looking for a tool/workflow I can easily replicate
So let’s say I have a steel guitar loop in c major
I want to make it sound fab or at least fab-ish in a song that’s e minor
What is the best way for me to attempt this?
I have been messing around with audio tune auv3 as well as the hardtune setting in VoiceRackfx, these seem to produce ok results
But I have read around on Reddit about using the circle of fifths to transpose a major into its relative minor...and then transpose that into the specific minor key you are after...
Should I do something like that...and then Auto-Tune that transposed result to cookie cutter any off notes into the key?
Is there another process/sequence of operations you would recommend?
I’m not a complete moron and yet all this talk about relative minor conversions etc is confusing me like crzy, would someone mind walking me through the mechanics of this type of scale conversion as it applies to audio rather than midi? Assuming a relative minor conversion is the way to approach this, if not please point me in what you think would be a more useful direction
It’s moments like these that I wish I had spent high school taking piano lessons instead of building granular synthesizers
...is like having a jet pack with no feet😓
If anyone has the patience to hold my hand or point me in the right direction to try to wrap my head around this I would be infinitely grateful
fk the scales go by ear
In this case it would help to know a modicum of music theory. You can't directly transpose from major to minor without actually changing the melody. But what you can do is to transpose from major to the relative major of the target minor scale. This will keep the intervals intact, so the melody will sound the same. It will change the cadence though (so the melody might not resolve as well), so the feel might be different, but that can't be avoided since you're changing scale types.
So in this case the relative major of E minor is G. Transpose from C major to G major by going down 5 semitones and the melody will sound in tune in E minor as well.
This is because G major and E minor use the same notes, even though each scale starts on a different note, both scales are comprised of G A B C D E F# - or in the case of E minor it's the same notes from a different starting point: E F# G A B C D
You can do this with modes as well. G Myxolydian uses the same notes as C Major, but starting from G instead of C.
@annahahn Yes, to continue from the above and summarize all pairs for you, these have a "relative" relationship. The major scale and natural minor scale have the same notes:
Major/minor
C/Am ; C#/A#m ; Db/Bbm ; D/Bm ; Eb/Cm ; E/C#m ; F/Dm ;
F#/D#m ; Gb/Ebm ; G/Em ; Ab/Fm ; A/F#m ; Bb/Gm ; B/G#m
Now if you want to change from C major to Cm, which are related by a "parallel" relationship, it's different because some notes stay the same and some notes are changed:
C major: C D E F G A B
C minor (natural): C D Eb F G Ab Bb
C minor (harmonic) C D Eb F G Ab B
C minor (melodic) C D Eb F G A B C Bb Ab G F Eb D C
So, just transpose all C major scale notes up/down by the same semitones won't achieve the minor scale.
Reading what you wrote again, and I agree, yes, knowing a bit of theory might help you speed things up a bit. Always refer back to music and playing though, a theory is just a theory.
You might want to try:
This whole conversations reminds me why I love midi so much 😜, some great tips though.
😆
I like both approaches. If it sounds good, it is good. But also, if you’re looking for a particular effect, or mood, it helps to have some theory. If you do, you can quickly find what you’re looking for.
If you don’t, you end up casting around at random, which can waste a lot of time, and may not get you what you want. It’s like the drunk searching for his keys under the street lamp, because that’s where the light is.
On the other hand, random experiments can yield gold. But even in that case, theory will help understand why it’s gold, so you can do it again in future.
Back on topic: old house tunes often didn’t bother with key. Just sample a major 7th chord, and change the pitch. If anyone asks, say you’re doing modal experiments
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@annahahn - It may help simplify things to understand what happens when you go from one scale and key to another. On the most basic level, it just means changing each note so that it fits the new scale. For instance, there is only one note that is different between C Major and E minor. C Major has an F, while E minor has an F#. The ways you've read about to do that are just different ways to accomplish making the notes fit. (I'll get to the reasons for them at the end if you're still with me.)
If you were playing a keyboard, and you had a tune that you knew in CMaj and you wanted to play that in Emin, all you would need to do to not be "out of tune" would be to remember to always play F# instead of F.
This would change the way that tune sounds in two ways:
Back to Audio Tune or other auto-tune apps for a second. Those apps work by analyzing frequencies that don't fit in the scale that you set, then altering them to fit. Exactly what I described in the part about changing the F's to F#'s above. The limitation is they introduce noticeable artifacts, and most don't work on chords.
I mention this because when tuning selective parts of audio you probably want to do as little changing as possible. Big changes, and multiple passes are going to leave your audio sounding a mess. So, even though it changes your tune in two important ways, with audio tuning, this is almost certainly the best approach. It is going to change the character of the imported loop, and it is going to degrade the quality some. But at least it should sound "in tune".
Results will vary drastically based on the source material. Simple, more percussive, non-polyphonic loops are going to work better than more complex material. "Easy" changes are going to work better than hard ones. By this I mean: Changing from Cmaj to Emin involves fixing only one note. Changing from Cmaj to Ebmin requires changing seven notes. It's probably not going to sound great.
If you can try to stick to the same scale types (major - major, minor - minor, etc.) then the job is easier - and will work on chords as well as single notes. In this case the whole audio file can be mathematically adjusted up or down to get to the right key. Individual notes don't need to be picked out and changed differently than others. In that case, using Zenbeats offline pitch shift will give much better results, and won't change the character of the tune.
I hope that simplifies the thought process a little.
Lastly, about changing to relative minor, etc:
First, remember that this is talking about transposing midi or instrument playing. When you're changing those there's no cost to doing multiple changes, whereas with tuning audio, every change introduces more distorted sound. These methods aren't good for tuning audio generally.
I mentioned above about tonal center changes. If you didn't want to end up with tonal center and interval changes, you'd also want to shift the melody upward so that the root note is E instead of C. You'd still watch for F's and replace them with F#'s, but you'd be playing every other note two white-keys higher than you did before.
Changing first to the relative minor then transposing to the new root is just another way of doing this. First, you're getting from a major to a minor that has all the same notes (Cmaj to Amin), but then you're transposing upward to Emin. The end result is the same: The melody has the same relative tonal center (now E instead of C) but with F's changed to F#s.
So ... the different ways to transpose are just different ways of approaching getting from one scale to another. They might be worth understanding to help with your playing, or for changing midi from one scale to another, but probably do more harm than good if you're working with Audio.
sounds like fun.
We already did it about MIDI too: https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/39407/best-way-to-change-key-signature-of-entire-midi-file-xequence
Well written, thanks for dropping some knowledge on us @wim
that case, theory will help understand
Yes.
Upvote this!
Upvote+++! Paralell major 7th chord rules!
What if the question is not about how to transpose a song from C major key to E minor, but how to transpose (or rather transform) a Cmaj chord (e.g. a tritone) in an audio sample to an Emin one. In this sense it's not heretical question from theory basics point of view
I don'think it is feasible.
However since any sound that is not a pure sin wave can be reconstructed from sin wave components.
We should break down each note of the Cmaj chord to its sin wave components, identify which sin wave component resoponsible for which sound in the chord and shift the frequency of each of these zillions of sin wave components by the right amount in order to get an E from the original C, get a G from the original E and get a B from the original G and mix them together again
It would be a nice project for any music app developer
You can do this manually on the desktop in Melodyne. Although you’d probably want to pitch shift the entire sample from C to E and then just adjust the third of the chord to get from major to minor.
Wow! Amazing! I was wondering what is the opinion of iOS developers about such project. e.g. @4Pockets
Thank you so so much for taking me to school @wim ~ your explanation was extremely helpful in helping me to understand🙌🙌🙌