Midi Bluetooth and Latency

Reuben

I'm thinking of getting the UD-BT01 or perhaps another wireless midi connector and thought I'd crunch some numbers. According to this article https://medium.com/@thomasgerbrands/the-truth-about-bluetooth-midi-54a3dc633052 the minimum latency on iOS for bluetooth midi is 11.25 milliseconds. Apparently this latency is built into the Apple specs.
So 11.25 x speed of sound (344m/sec) equates to 3.87 meters or just over 12.7 feet equivalent distace from source. So at a mimimum its like playing your instrument from across the other side of the room which is probably just OK. But if you add in any other source of latency (the app, the wireless device) I'd imagine the true latency would be higher.
I'd be interested in hearing from those using bluetooth midi what their experience is like.

wim

The article doesn’t say that the minimum latency is 11.5ms. It says the connection interval is 11.5ms. If you sent a note just at the instant after the last connection then the latency would be close to that. If you played it later within that 11.5ms window it would be shorter.

Either way, I’ve never been bothered by BT latency for normal playing. That could vary widely for other sensitivities and skill levels.

I have been faced with BT bandwidth limitations. MPE from my Sensel Morph is unworkable over BT. My Korg NanoKEY Studio doesn’t even try to send midi clock over it.

But for regular playing (I’m no virtuoso) its fine for me.

mojozart

I agree with wim that BLE MIDI is fine for non-MPE. It enables products like Jamstik to work.

Secondly, latency isn't all it's cracked up to be. Performers can internalize a lot of latency and still play at impressive speed (e.g., pipe organists) as long as the jitter (randomness) is low.

wim

@mojozart said:
I agree with wim that BLE MIDI is fine for non-MPE. It enables products like Jamstik to work.

Secondly, latency isn't all it's cracked up to be. Performers can internalize a lot of latency and still play at impressive speed (e.g., pipe organists) as long as the jitter (randomness) is low.

I find it harder to deal with latency playing guitar as I hear and feel the original string, followed by the sound in the headphones. Somehow what little sound a key being depressed doesn’t trigger the same reaction in me. Or maybe it’s just because I’m a better guitarist than keyboard player.

mojozart

Hearing the strings distracts me, too. I need/use isolating headphones.

Poppadocrock

My korgnanokey studio always seems fine to me.

rs2000

@mojozart said:
I agree with wim that BLE MIDI is fine for non-MPE. It enables products like Jamstik to work.

Secondly, latency isn't all it's cracked up to be. Performers can internalize a lot of latency and still play at impressive speed (e.g., pipe organists) as long as the jitter (randomness) is low.

Exactly my experience. For reasonable data rates (and I guess that's what you mean by non-MPE), it works well enough to have several of my controllers equipped with the MD-BT01 or Quicco mi.1. And I'm quite sensitive to latency.

High audio buffer values in iOS apps will have a more dramatic effect than BTLE MIDI latency.

rs2000

@mojozart said:
Hearing the strings distracts me, too. I need isolating headphones.

Beyer DT770 worked the best for me so far.

BroCoast

I don't find BT latency that bad for basic note on/off stuff. I find it similar to say using the smart instruments in GB.

timbo

I have both a PUC+ and a MD-BT01. I’ve never noticed the latency with either.

I tried a pipe organ once though and was completely thrown. I don’t know how those guys do it, there was nearly a second latency from key press to sound.

GLacey

@timbo said:

I tried a pipe organ once though and was completely thrown. I don’t know how those guys do it, there was nearly a second latency from key press to sound.

I never had the chance so far to try a pipe organ, but I’d love to. I think this latency would completely confuse me

rs2000

@GLacey said:

@timbo said:

I tried a pipe organ once though and was completely thrown. I don’t know how those guys do it, there was nearly a second latency from key press to sound.

I never had the chance so far to try a pipe organ, but I’d love to. I think this latency would completely confuse me

It's not that real pipe organs are latency-free... have you ever played one?

GLacey

@rs2000,

I haven’t. Just reflected to @timbo ’s post claiming pipe organs have such latency.

rs2000

@GLacey said:
@rs2000,

I haven’t. Just reflected to @timbo ’s post claiming pipe organs have such latency.

Sorry, I must have ignored that first part 😅
I did as a child and indeed, I wondered why that is. But it's a great example of how much players can adapt to latencies in the hundreds of milliseconds.
And let's not talk about the latency of people singing in the church, one second is nothing 😁

Gravitas

@rs2000 said:

@GLacey said:
@rs2000,

I haven’t. Just reflected to @timbo ’s post claiming pipe organs have such latency.

Sorry, I must have ignored that first part 😅
I did as a child and indeed, I wondered why that is. But it's a great example of how much players can adapt to latencies in the hundreds of milliseconds.
And let's not talk about the latency of people singing in the church, one second is nothing 😁

Try getting people to clap in time during a live performance.

'And on the two and four'.... 😂

knewspeak

@Gravitas said:

@rs2000 said:

@GLacey said:
@rs2000,

I haven’t. Just reflected to @timbo ’s post claiming pipe organs have such latency.

Sorry, I must have ignored that first part 😅
I did as a child and indeed, I wondered why that is. But it's a great example of how much players can adapt to latencies in the hundreds of milliseconds.
And let's not talk about the latency of people singing in the church, one second is nothing 😁

Try getting people to clap in time during a live performance.

'And on the two and four'.... 😂

Hence a conductor

rs2000

@knewspeak said:

@Gravitas said:

@rs2000 said:

@GLacey said:
@rs2000,

I haven’t. Just reflected to @timbo ’s post claiming pipe organs have such latency.

Sorry, I must have ignored that first part 😅
I did as a child and indeed, I wondered why that is. But it's a great example of how much players can adapt to latencies in the hundreds of milliseconds.
And let's not talk about the latency of people singing in the church, one second is nothing 😁

Try getting people to clap in time during a live performance.

'And on the two and four'.... 😂

Hence a conductor

Sexy dancers can work wonders 😇

Gravitas

@rs2000 said:

@knewspeak said:

@Gravitas said:

@rs2000 said:

@GLacey said:
@rs2000,

I haven’t. Just reflected to @timbo ’s post claiming pipe organs have such latency.

Sorry, I must have ignored that first part 😅
I did as a child and indeed, I wondered why that is. But it's a great example of how much players can adapt to latencies in the hundreds of milliseconds.
And let's not talk about the latency of people singing in the church, one second is nothing 😁

Try getting people to clap in time during a live performance.

'And on the two and four'.... 😂

Hence a conductor

Sexy dancers can work wonders 😇

Agreed.

Even if it is only to compensate for the lack of timing. 😇

knewspeak

@Gravitas said:

@rs2000 said:

@knewspeak said:

@Gravitas said:

@rs2000 said:

@GLacey said:
@rs2000,

I haven’t. Just reflected to @timbo ’s post claiming pipe organs have such latency.

Sorry, I must have ignored that first part 😅
I did as a child and indeed, I wondered why that is. But it's a great example of how much players can adapt to latencies in the hundreds of milliseconds.
And let's not talk about the latency of people singing in the church, one second is nothing 😁

Try getting people to clap in time during a live performance.

'And on the two and four'.... 😂

Hence a conductor

Sexy dancers can work wonders 😇

Agreed.

Even if it is only to compensate for the lack of timing. 😇

And that’s entertainment

ChrisG

I’ve used a Roland A-01 with an iPhone 5 and 6S. Never really noticed any latency to speak of.

BroCoast

@rs2000 said:

@GLacey said:
@rs2000,

I haven’t. Just reflected to @timbo ’s post claiming pipe organs have such latency.

Sorry, I must have ignored that first part 😅
I did as a child and indeed, I wondered why that is. But it's a great example of how much players can adapt to latencies in the hundreds of milliseconds.
And let's not talk about the latency of people singing in the church, one second is nothing 😁

Visual/physical cues is what makes performing with such latencies possible. Latency in the digital world is a completely different thing.

RedSkyLullaby

@Reuben said:
I'm thinking of getting the UD-BT01 or perhaps another wireless midi connector and thought I'd crunch some numbers. According to this article https://medium.com/@thomasgerbrands/the-truth-about-bluetooth-midi-54a3dc633052 the minimum latency on iOS for bluetooth midi is 11.25 milliseconds. Apparently this latency is built into the Apple specs.
So 11.25 x speed of sound (344m/sec) equates to 3.87 meters or just over 12.7 feet equivalent distace from source. So at a mimimum its like playing your instrument from across the other side of the room which is probably just OK. But if you add in any other source of latency (the app, the wireless device) I'd imagine the true latency would be higher.
I'd be interested in hearing from those using bluetooth midi what their experience is like.

I use bluetooth midi with CME XKey air and ipad, never had any latency issues. I researched alot before I bought a bluetooth midi device as had same worries, turned out unfounded. i honestly cant tell difference if I am using the cme keyboard bluetooth or wired. i would say that connecting up to apps is slightly easier and more consistent when wired

Reuben

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. I'm going to order the UD-BT01 for Fathers Day (its this coming Sunday in Australia).

rs2000

@Reuben said:
Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. I'm going to order the UD-BT01 for Fathers Day (its this coming Sunday in Australia).

Is the UD-BT01 still available? I thought it was a discontinued product (I recently had to purchase one second hand).

Reuben

Ha Ha! - I tried to order it and no stock from all the main sellers in Australia. I found a Chineese knockoff for half the price at Ali Express and I ordered it instead. Its called DoreMidi USB to Wireless Bluetooth Midi adaptor. I figured it was worth the risk given the price and included free delivery.