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Comments
That's good enough a reason. I think DAWs are like religions. You don't want to mess with that. Just stick with one and learn it well. Changing a DAW is a nightmare, as everyone who did so knows.
I'm sure you know this already, but BitWig is awesome and also scratches that Eurorack/Drambo itch with its Grid module and parameter automation widgets (which also work with VST plugins)
I can’t live without Logic’s non destructive parameter panel.
I have had Logic since v1. Back in 1993 it cost about £400. It was MIDI only and came with an ADB dongle. Ask your Dad ;-)
I kept using it throughout, and bought Logic Pro X in, I think, 2013.
In that time, these features (and many, many more) have been added. For Free. For an app that then cost <£200.
10.1
New Drum Machine Designer for electronic drum kits
New compressor with 7 models (They're really good -- 1176, Opto, etc. clones that you can put on every track without worrying about CPU and they sound every bit as good as most third party plug ins I've tried)
10.2
Alchemy. !!!
10.3
Track alternatives
64 bit summing engine
10.4
Smart Tempo
Chromaverb algorithmic reverb
Step FX! -- God I'd Missed CamelSpace
Phat FX! -- God I'd Missed CamelPhat!
Vintage EQ Collection -- 3 analogue modelled EQs.
Studio Strings
Studio Horns
Mellotron plug-in
10.5
Live Loops!
New Sampler to replace EXS24
Quick Sampler
New Drum Machine Designer
Step Sequencer
10.6
Control the step sequencer with Remote on iPhone/iPad
10.7
Spatial Audio/Dolby Atmos
M1
Plus loads and loads of other features/fixes
Plus A ton of new content regularly; New Loops, New instruments, new drum kits, new drummers, etc. etc.
And it's worth re-stating. Everything above was added for free...
I think you are quite close with your assumption. AFAIK Moog‘s apps are developed with Apple’s Mac Catalyst. With this technology it is possible to develop only one code base which is basically an iOS app but you can also generate Mac versions for Intel and Apple Silicon. I wonder why not more devs go this route.
Reaper also loads AUv3.
Edit : Reaper loads some AUv3s. Just checked a few.
Honestly, the only good thing of Logic are its instruments and the AUv3 support. But you can get both things purchasing MainStage for 30 euros, and then integrating these into Ableton Live or Bitwig with your preferred solution: Blackhole, Loopback, Blue Cat's Connector. With how powerful is the MIDI environment in Mac OS, thanks to the possibility of creating infinite MIDI buses using its IAC driver, you can have the best of both worlds.
Also, the Auto Sampler included in MainStage and Logic is the best in its category, and it comes with a separated Audio Unit for using it in other DAWs.
And I will say that Logic Pro qualities are exaggerated by the only fact of being an Apple product. And let's be honest, if we're in this forum is because we love the Apple way of doing things (most of the time). I have been using Mac OS since 2006, and nothing can be compared to its intuitiveness, beauty of the interface and powerful features integrated in a way in which you can do simple tasks with a couple of clicks and without navigating through convoluted menus.
So when I became interested in music production, Logic Pro was the first step without questioning other options, if it was an Apple product sold as a professional tool, it should be the best.
But I discovered that this vision was bullshit on my part.
Once you discover the Ableton Live workflow and the finesse of its interface, there is not turning back and you become a believer.
So you start demolishing myths.
For example, for my concrete use case, drone/ambient, experimental material, sound design... Ableton Live instruments and effects are vastly superior to Logic Pro. Every tool included in Ableton has been commissioned to the pioneers in this concrete area.
All its physical modelled tools are created by Applied Acoustic Systems. The Glue, which is a standard industry for creating punch-in-your-face drums, it has been created by Cytomic. Its granulator has been designed by Robert Henke, which is a legend in the experimental music field. It has integrated Cycling '74 Max, that has been the gold standard for performances and music installations in museums for decades.
Also, you discover that everything is not possible with Logic. No if you're looking for creating experimental things.
An example, in Bitwig you have a XY pad device for creating morphing sounds between 4 instruments, that you can configure as you want. Choose your 4 preferred synths, and mix and merge the 4 sounds in real time.
These advanced features, which are common in Ableton Live and Bitwig, sound like science fiction living inside the Logic bubble, that at the end of the day, it's a product that tried to imitate a classic analog studio workflow.
I agree with others who said it’s not an easy comparison to make. I own both and use them for different things. Logic has a much more conventional approach, while Live is good for more experimentation with loops, one shots, and performance.
I have Ableton. I got it for Max For Live. The range of experimental devices, sequencers, synths, and whatnot that run as M4L devices (many of them free) were what tipped the balance for me. The DAW itself as the instrument…
@Pynchon
Those are some pretty absolutist opinions.
Just because you don't like Logic doesn't make it a 'myth' or 'BS'.
It's a great app that allows me to do everything I want.
Live is also great but isn't really for me.
Nokia vs Motorola
I agree with some of what was said here, for me Logic was the least intuitive and least logical DAW to learn out of all of them.
I love using Live and Bitwig interchangeably. Love their workflows and feature sets.
I used Mac Catalyst to port my AU's to the Mac. It works well for doing this sort of thing. But, there are quite a few reasons that a dev might not want to do this. The first is that this method will only give you the out-of-process style of AUv3. If you want to build the more standard on Mac in-process plugin, you still would need to develop a separate framework based deliverable. From a usability standpoint, the Catalyst based UI is using touch oriented components. There is some auto scaling that happens to make iOS UI fit the Mac better with fonts and controls, but this is far from perfect. You then need to add quite a bit of platform specific code to deal with the differences in key, mouse, and trackpad inputs because lots of gestures don't map directly to anything on the Mac.
I'd guess the biggest reason though is that most plugins aren't developed with Audio Unit in first priority and AUv3 is lower even still. If you have a dev process that is based around JUCE and/or VST3, then you can push out a workable AUv3, v2 Audio Unit, VST, and LV2 easier. I think the VST3 SDK can even produce iOS and macOS versions of AUv3. Since so many GUI elements of a plugin are custom anyway, it kinda makes more sense to go this route than use Catalyst. I think the only reason to go the Catalyst path is if you are primarily focused on providing an iOS based plugin that is optimized for a touch based experience.
My sequencer path went from Cubase on the Atari ST in the early days to Emagic Logic on Macs (mainly OS X). I picked up Ableton at v1 to run via Rewire in Logic.
I once thought Emagic Logic was the best of the best and then Apple purchased it and what was the most innovative DAW on any OS, stood still for far too long. In the intervening years Ableton got MIDI, and even though its MIDI implementation was very weak for the first few release cycles, the overall workflow won me over and I stopped rewiring it into Logic.
I now run Ableton and Bitwig interchangeably. They share the same DNA, so it's an easy habit to maintain. And now the fact that Logic has stood still for so many years (save for a UI spruce-up and some other Apple purchases that buoyed up the native plugin lineup), it's actually an advantage that it's fundamentally the same DAW is 20 years ago, for when I need a more linear DAW for sound to picture projects and suchlike. And recently I've been using the Dolby Atmos plugins as they cost circa $1k to run in any other DAW.
In summary, my natural home is Ableton/Bitwig but Logic is the creaky standby that has its uses.
I wasn't saying that Logic is bullshit. I said that my initial approach of having Logic Pro as my only possible option in Mac, because if I love other Apple products, Logic should be unquestionably the best and most powerful DAW, it was bullshit, and solely on my part. It was a mistake not investigating the other options, assuming that Logic had every function that I could need. The reality is that none DAW has all the options and tools, each one has its strengths and weakness.
At the end of the day, all the DAWs have fully functional demos. It's a matter of try all of them, until you find the one that better fits with your workflow.
For lineal editing, producing rock music or recording live acoustic instruments, Logic seems a great DAW. Unless you try to add external hardware synths or sequencers to te equation, but that's other story.
Also, fwiw, the Logic Pro Remote app on the iPad is a stellar implementation of how to use the iPad and the Mac together via this pairing.
I really love TouchablePro on the iPad when working with Ableton too.
I am a long time Ableton user and have been wanting to dabble more into orchestral writing so, seeing most people that do orchestral writing are using Cubase or Logic, I decided to try my hand with Logic...
I think I've just been using Ableton for so long that the entire Logic paradigm broke my brain. I see how people can use it so effortlessly, but things just do not click for me in the UI and the piano roll. I'm sure with enough time I could get along with it fine, but right now...I feel like I just want to stay in Ableton. They have multi clip editing now from multiple channels, which, while it doesn't look as nice as Logic, it looks like it could serve my needs for seeing my overall arrangement. Time will tell, I haven't had a lot of time or creative energy as of late, so hopefully that hurdle will get jumped soon
@drez
I’d say stick with what you know. It will be a lot easier to find workaround and methods in Live than learn a new DAW.
It’s hard to switch when you have a lot of baggage. Too many things don’t work the way you’re used to and it will just end up being a total frustration.
The grass isn’t greener.
There’s very little you can achieve in Live you couldn’t do in Logic and vice versa. The ways you go about achieving those things can be very different though.
Unless you don’t like your DAW there’s really no reason to try another.
Live and Logic are both stellar. Whichever one fits your brain will do you fine. :-)
I tried almost all major DAWs but Logic is where I feel home since years. Live would be not even in my Top 3 but like with synths and other tools there is no way around to find out what workflow, features, instruments and FX you like etc. other than try it.
One thing for sure, Logic for € 179 was the biggest bang for buck I ever got for any music related software (and it is still for the current price).
Thanks @NeonSilicon for the insight. Often such tools sound easier on paper as they actually are. Cross platform development tools usually have some limitations and pain points. I can imagine that for audio plugins a dedicated tool as you mentioned is a better choice. Probably Catalyst is great for normal apps, like clients for internet services, simple games, etc.
I think our discussion here clearly show that it’s a question of finding the DAW that matches your ways and your workflows. I will definitely dive deeper into using my shiny new APC 40 with Ableton and Bitwig. It suddenly feels really much more tactile.
I didn't mean to make it sound like Catalyst is a bad choice or particularly difficult. It's more down to what a particular dev uses already or what might fit their plans better. Personally, I really don't like JUCE. I am really intrigued by what the VST3 SDK has to offer, but I haven't tried it at any depth yet.
You are definitely correct about Catalyst being good for bringing things like client side software to the Mac. If someone has a banking app or similar on iOS, then Catalyst will bring that to the Mac with very little effort. I was actually surprised at how easy it was for me to "port" my AU's to the Mac using Catalyst. For someone that has iOS based plugins that doesn't plan on doing VST ports, then Catalyst is a good choice.
Honestly, I'm surprised there hasnt been a bigger user migration from Ableton to Bitwig.
Ableton has been dragging their feet LOOOOOONG before the 10 --> 11 delay.
I'd have to say the bang for the buck award goes to Drambo, and I dont even use it that much.
That could be a feature for some people. Think about how many folks here stay on older versions of apps, or even iOS, because it works and they don’t want to break things.
And with DAWs, there’s a ton of inertia. It’s such a pain to change, and learn a new way to do everything, instead of using that time to make music.
As more musicians leave the comfort of being 100% in-the-box and rediscover hardware synths some people have struggled with sync and timing with Live.
Bitwig apparently has much tighter timing with external MIDI.
For example:
Also Theres a cool bit in the linked video which shows Carl using his Circuit to make electro and how he transfers that to Bitwig around the 36 minute mark.
I use this Max for Live device to manage orchestral articulation swapping in Ableton.
https://www.swub.de/en/software/keyswitch-expression-map-ableton-live/
It only cost €15 and adds so much more control when working with large orchestra libraries with multiple articulation swaps/expression options.
I watched this video this week, it explains how a simple tool like an arpeggiator in Bitwig, it can be converted in a generative music tool using its modulators.
https://youtu.be/c-l0qlxn0zk
The interesting thing is the last part, he shows how the internal clock of separated VST devices compares to Bitwig internal clock, using a hardware synth. And Bitwig nails the timing.
Between this and the possibility of designing your own layouts, with various pages of knobs controlling different CC signals, plus the possibility of then using these layouts in an iPad screen with a touch interface via sidecar, nothing comes even close to Bitwig for controlling external synths.
All of that said, Bitwig also has his weakness compared to Ableton Live.
You can't open and edit video, it lacks audio scrubbing and there is no way of preview the sound of samples when you're editing them in its internal Sampler device, it won't automatically save your last notes played like Ableton does, it lacks a convolution reverb and spectral effects in general. And I really miss a light theme like in Ableton, I hate to work with an obscure interface.
But also, after using Bitwig and seeing how they have refined and improved every aspect of the Ableton workflow, it's very hard to going back to Ableton as my main DAW.
Fortunately in these days, i's very easy to interconnect various DAWS. And Ableton Live is a perfect companion for Bitwig, using its effects and instruments, and most importantly, its Max for Live devices. There is some crazy stuff in the sequencers department.
For the type of stuff I produce, I find that Ableton and Bitwig make for excellent bedfellows. Not that I attempt to use them both on the same projects. But there are enough commonalities in the workflow's of each, that there's no discernable extra cognitive load when moving from one to the other. And they each equally have their own strengths and luckily there's little crosstown traffic in terms of those strengths, which helps you pick which of the two you'd prefer for a particular project.
If you dig working in a modular non-linear fashion, either will float your boat in compelling ways.
Live and Logic still complement each other well.
Live is stronger in its immediacy of use and Logic is better for linear arrangements with lots of MIDI editing.
I wouldn't even compare them in a "which is better shootout" because there would need to be too many subjective factors involved.