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Auria Pro Problems (MIDI)
Hello, I’m looking for advice about some problems I’m having.
I write music in Symphony Pro, a music notation app like Notion. Since the instruments don’t sound great in SP, I’m trying to find a way to make the music I write sound better. The current piece I’m working on has 51 tracks and is probably going to be around 12 minutes long. It’s currently around 7 minutes. When I try to render the piece into midi (within SP) and import it into Auria Pro, via the files app, most of the midi data just isn’t there.
So I broke the piece into individual tracks and rendered each one into midi and then checked them by re-importing them into Symphony Pro to check that the whole track was there. It was. I then imported them into Auria Pro, one at a time, and still - they all stopped at 1:48 minutes. I then tried to lower the buffer rate and I got a bit over 2 minutes to show up.
Also, the tracks were not aligned in time when imported - they were offset so the notes no longer lined up.
Another problem I have is instruments. I set the instrument (tried from both editor and mixer) using iSymphonic as AU. Auria will remember the iSymphonic part but will set it to the first option in the scroll down menu, not the instrument I chose, so I have to re-set them every time I open the project - which takes a long time for 51 instruments.
Also, the longer I work with the project, notes just drop off the end - the track gets shorter and shorter by a few notes at a time.
I’ve looked everywhere I could find about this and apparently, my process is different than most people. I write in standard notation. Writing in the piano roll within Auria would be very in-intuitive for me. All I really want to do is get better sounds and Auria does that. I’ve hardly scratched the surface and I’m already pleased with the sounds I can get. But I just can’t get it to work. Anyone have any ideas? FYI, I’m using a 2020 iPad Pro.
Thanks.
By the way, I’m posting here because you have to be approved to post in the Auria Pro forum and they haven’t approved me.
Comments
@ansonwoods : re iSymphonic remembering the patch when you reopen: I have two questions:
That is a bummer about the MIDI file not being completely imported.
What OS and hardware are you running on?
@WaveMachineLabs : you here?
@espiegel123 ,
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
I am using iPad os 14.4 and an iPad Pro, 4th gen. from last year.
I have tried setting both the preset and the instrument at the same time with the same result.
As for AUM, I don’t use it. I’m hoping to get away with one notation app, one DAW, and maybe some plugins for the DAW. I have had other apps remember the instrument from iSymphonic though.
This seems like a really basic thing for a program like Auria to be able to do. I can import midi just fine on free or cheap apps. I must be doing something wrong or a lot more people would be mentioning it.
It could be some feature of the MIDI file that throws Auria off — I would send them an email and attach the MIDI file. Try the email address found on:
https://www.auriaapp.com/Support/auria-support
Did you double check that you are loading the AU version of iSymphonic and not the IAA? I haven’t had any issues with Auria remembering AU state/preset.
Personally I would avoid native midi and Auria Pro.
My advice would be get Imaginando’s LK and import your midi to it and then run LK inside Auria Pro. If your midi import doesn’t work Imaginando are more likely to be able to help you in a timely manor than Rim at WaveMachine, IMHO. And LK works great inside Auria Pro.
LK inside Auria?. Interesting!.
How do you set it up?. Can you freeze Auria instrument tracks when they’re being fed by LK?.
BTW I just did my first real session in Auria Pro and I’ve got mixed feelings. Auria is by far, miles ahead in audio editing, buses, routing and everything you need for a “proper” project.
But its got some very annoying issues
I’m interested in how you use LK in Auria, you might overcome some of its limitations, or your general workflow and how you fit Auria into it.
Cheers!
Are you loading into a template and does the template have ripple edit engagd? That silly thing has given me so many idd kittle problems........i agree about Auria issues, besides the almost constant crashes, i do like that its almost like a live console,, fir the way im using it iwould love 8-12 DCAs, a matrix, i dont mean the patch matrix, i mean a subgroup matrix, 2 seperate solo options and to have the ability to place the insert points where i want hem in the signal path, but my main gripe is that the piano roll is awful, just awful, not as bad as my keyboard skills are but its so buggy, every time i zoom in, it either scrolls me to the top if the roll or the bottom. It seems to always place notes next to where i touched in my pad, i absolutely despise the draw function being engaged as a default, sometimes i can move nites around as the orogram is playing other times, i have to stop and ,ale my adjustments. When i join sections, motes change their time values, today i had a 1/4 note become a whole note when i joined it with a single bar pattern. But its a 1000x better than Garbageband, except the piano roll, gbs is actually pretty decent
@espiegel123 ,
I will do just that but I applied to be approved for their forum and never got a response so I’m not sure they’re paying attention.
@Richtowns ,
Thanks for the suggestion. I installed LK and will try it out. Can you tell me how you get LK to ‘run inside’ Auria? I don’t see any obvious way for midi input like selecting an instrument or effect. I couldn’t even figure out how to import a midi file into it in the first 20 mins...
@Tanooki75 ,
No template, I just add a blank track, open the files window off to the side and drag the file into the track on the editor screen. I’ll check the ripple edit. Just from trying to drag notes around or insert missing notes in the piano roll, I know I’ll never compose in that screen. It would suck all the joy out of it. Why don’t notes snap into the space where you tap? I always have to place a note then try to drag it into place.
@ansonwoods
I import midi in a different way into AP. I once made a midi folder inside APs directory ‚on my ipad‘ using the files app. If i now want to import midi, i use the Files app and copy the midi file into that directory. Then in AP, i open APs menu and select ‚import file‘, navigate into the midi sub folder and tick the midi file and after specifying the destination midi track, i press ok.
I don‘t know if this import method differs from just using drap&drop directy from files app onto a track like you did. Maybe try if the import of your longer midi‘s work when using this more cumbersome approach.
The piano roll note input of AP applies the quantisation similar to note input on some of the desktop DAWs - i remember discussing this with Rim (AP’s main dev) several years ago. So when using 1/4 beat quantisation, you need to press in the left half of the 1/4 beat you want the note to be played - otherwise the note is quantised to the next 1/4 beat. Pressing in the 1/8 area before the exact quarter beat will also put the note right on the 1/4 beat.
I just tried to setup the LK AUv3 inside AP and experimented with routing its midi output to other tracks, but failed. Even experienced AP crashes while tring around.
I expected that it would work when inserting LK as instrument on a midi track and configuring the midi output of that track to to all. Now in the receiver tracks i set the midi input to receive from the LK track and specify the midi channel so that several midi receiver tracks could be fed by just one LK instance. But this didn‘t work - i‘m sure that LK is playing notes, but none of the Lyras is triggered
Perhaps other users can supply on how to set that up.
@_ki ,
Hello, can I ask you how you write music? Do you write in another app and then import into Auria for mixing and sound improvement? I write music in standard notation in Symphony Pro and then render into midi format and try to import that into Auria. I don’t record any live instruments or anything else, just write music and try to import as midi files, so I don’t do any composing within Auria itself.
I’m not sure whether i tapped on the left side of the note space or not - I’ll try that the next time.
I spent a couple of hours trying to figure out how to import into LK and then into Auria and made no progress.
Jeez, i just want to write music in standard notation and then try to make it sound okay by mixing it in Auria.
Thanks for your reply.
@ansonwoods I can’t help with Auria I am afraid but I guess I have a similar workflow to you in that I mostly use notation. I don’t know if any of the following will help as I do not know what sort of instruments you target with your music but it took me a lot of time and money to get to this point so it may be of use:
For notating music for use with AUs (synths etc) I use https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/multitrackstudio-for-ipad/id776998585. With the Pro expansion you can edit multiple tracks of notation at the same time. The next part of my workflow is still a work in progress (waiting for LK to support more time signatures, maybe Atom 2 will work) but for now I import the MIDI into https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/nanostudio-2/id1112601015 in n-bar chunks for arrangement. I could do this in MTS but it is much smoother in NS2 and NS2 lets you link MIDI clips so that if you update one then the rest also update themselves.
For sampled instruments I use https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/staffpad/id1442074103. For orchestral instruments you will not find a better sounding option on iOS (e.g.
) but be prepared to have your bank account drained by the sample addons. I spent a lot of time and money trying to put together realistic sounding instruments but after buying StaffPad I realised I had wasted my time as I would never have been able to get anywhere close with the other options available on iOS. There are a number of export options, including mixed audio, audio stems or MIDI (you will lose many instrument articulations when moving to MIDI). It was not cheap but I no longer feel the need to buy any more orchestral instrument sample packs or apps.
@ansonwoods Sorry, i don‘t ‚write‘ music or do finished tracks.
I‘m one of those AUM dabblers
and wouldn’t state that i am a musician. I just enjoy ‚doing‘ music and sculpt interactive pieces/ simple arrangements.
But i know there are some talented folks here in the forum, maybe one of them can answer about their workflow.
@ansonwoods : perhaps you could post the midi file and see if anyone can figure out a route to getting it into Auria.
Also, I would not treat the devs not seeing the forum request as a reason not to email them. The forum notification system may not be functioning properly.
@ansonwoods Hope thishelps ...
I guess the key things are add the midi app to the effects slot and most important click the note icon to activate external midi on the track. Good luck
@Richtowns Thanks a lot for the video !
In my tries mentioned above, i was missing to enable the midi input for the receiving tracks indicated by the yellow note icon available both in track and mixer view.
@MisplacedDevelopment ,
Thank you, that is very helpful and as much time (and $) as I’ve spent agonizing over different apps, I’d never heard of Staffpad. Before I take the plunge, I just want to make sure - a DAW will allow you to use Staffpad’s sample library, ie, it’s not limited to use only within Staffpad but you can access it from Nanostudio (and maybe Auria)?
I often use a combo of organ, voices, piano and vibraphones plus strings, woodwinds, brass, etc, and have purchased a bunch of the iSymphonic libraries. Have you heard these and how do they compare with the Staffpad instruments you have? I’m afraid of what you’ll say because I listened to some more of the demos on YouTube and Staffpad’s instruments do sound great.
@Richtowns ,
Thanks for the video - that helps a lot. I’ll try it out tonight.
@_ki ,
That’s pretty much me too.
@espiegel123 ,
I’ll attach the MIDI file for the piece I’m working on. It’s a work in progress so don’t judge!
I’ll also post a video of Symphony Pro playing the file (with its crappy sounding instruments) for reference since the MIDI file removes instrumentation and dynamic markings (and usually, ties and often triplets too).
Actually, maybe I won’t. I tried to attach but it’s not working for some reason. Here’s a Dropbox link which may work: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ao65pu5cyaf1hcm/AADqerxI18QwF3c8QyBYlCrWa?dl=0
https://youtu.be/w1IbKstgsDo
Cool piece.
Maybe you can zip the file and put it on a file sharing site with a private link and you can PM me -- I won't judge.
I could try both importing by a couple of methods and using an intermediary app just in case there is something funky that AP is choking on that another sequencer might export differently.
If you haven't tried importing using the method that someone else suggested (importing from within the file rather than using drag and drop), try that.
It also is probably, seeing if you can export/import a just a few of the instruments just in case the issue has to do with the number of tracks (51) or the total size.
@espiegel123 ,
I edited my comment above with a drop box link to the midi file that should be public.
I have tried just importing the whole file from Auria’s menu but one by one like I did with the drag and drop method. I also tried turning the buffer speed down to I think 56 with no luck. Maybe the problem is actually Symphony Pro’s rendering of the file into midi?
When I import into Auria, I get 113 measures for the longest tracks. Some tracks are shorter and 11 are empty. I also imported into Xequence and on first glance, they seem the same.
Auria does t seem to preserve the track names , unfortunately. Xequence did.
Here is what I see n Auria Pro after the import. Btw, buffer size shouldn’t impact import.
@ansonwoods nice piece! It sounds like StaffPad and iSymphonic are similar in that they want to you do as much of your production within the app as possible. You will not be able to trigger StaffPad sounds from within a DAW since all iOS DAWs talk in MIDI and MIDI is not quite expressive enough to do the sorts of things you can do in something like StaffPad. Take a simple legato run, for example. In a DAW with MIDI notes then you can simulate a legato run of notes by overlapping notes and choosing appropriate samples but it will sound odd since each sample is triggered separately and it is difficult to make them flow into each other in a convincing way. StaffPad (and possibly iSymphonic to some extent) have a richer set of samples to choose from and can automatically patch over these seams without you needing to worry about keyswitches and dozens of types of sample for each instrument to try and cover all the types of sound you may need.
The intended StaffPad workflow is to use the sounds within StaffPad and render either the whole piece to a single WAV or render each instrument separately and then master in Auria. This time you will be mastering the rendered WAV rather than the MIDI notes. You still have the option of exporting MIDI and since you make use of organs and piano then you may find that these sound just as good outside of StaffPad using a good quality AU since there tend to be fewer specific articulations required for those instruments. You will not however be able to take a violin section that uses articulations such as pizzicato and drop the MIDI in Auria since you would need to find samples that cover all your articulations and then find a way of triggering them. This is part of the nightmare I went through before I settled on StaffPad.
If iSymphonic exports individually rendered WAVs for each instrument then you should be able to use these alongside the StaffPad ones in Auria, e.g. export the vocal line from iSymphonic if you like the sounds better than the StaffPad sounds and then use this alongside an organ that you export from StaffPad. As long as the tempo and signature matches then you only have the task of making them sound like they were recorded in the same room. On that point, you should export both without reverb and add it later. The option is there in StaffPad but I do not know about iSymphonic.
The things you need to be aware of are:
1) StaffPad comes with a set of instruments which sound better than a lot of what you'll get elsewhere but the demos you see on YouTube have normally been recorded using one of the sample packs and it will not be long before you start to "need" them.
2) The sample packs are not cheap. You are looking at £99/$99 each for the main strings/brass/woodwind/percussion and there are 3 companies which produce and sell their own versions. The only sales I have seen are on the Cinesamples range. I did some research and settled on the Berlin strings/woodwind/first chairs (for solo strings) and the cineperc/cinebrass. Additional packs I have bought are the Tina Guo cello, guitars and Voxos. Since you use vocals quite a bit then I would suggest you check out some StaffPad Voxos videos to determine if they are appropriate. There are a few packs for organ/keyboard/pianos but I cannot vouch for these versus what you would get with e.g. the Ravenscroft AU, as my ears do not hear as much difference between a badly sampled piano and a badly sampled violin. I am therefore using the stock samples for those instruments.
3) Importing existing music in StaffPad appears to be still a bit hit and miss. If iSymphonic exports MusicXML then this may be the best route but going via MIDI has its problems. Someone like @McD may be able to comment as he has done quite a bit of MIDI import. I suspect you will have trouble trying to cleanly import a piece the size of the one above.
4) If you have not already sold an organ (human) to pay for all of this then you will also need an official Apple Pencil and be ready for a frustrating learning curve to get used to how StaffPad enters its notes. Unfortunately there is no alternative entry option at the moment and they seem to be clinging steadfast to this decision as a unique selling point.
5) I would recommend that you read some of the threads here as there is more active discussion of StaffPad https://vi-control.net/community/forums/staffpad-other-pen-entry-notation-devices.184/
@MisplacedDevelopment ,
Thank you, you have almost completely clarified the basic mechanics for me and what remains is to try to wrestle with the software until something works. I noticed the legato phenomenon you mentioned even with symphony pro - a $10 app that really has a lot of power in it to compose music using all the expressions in the language of musical notation but when rendered into midi, you’re just left with piano-roll type information. Blips in space and time that I was hoping to be able to insert better sounding instruments into and then massage in terms of midi positioning until I get close. It takes all the time you put into composing in musical notation and strips the musicality away.
Now I understand - get a notation app that gets you as close as possible, export the audio, not the midi to something like Auria and clean it up and add your reverb to get a sense of spatiality. That’s another thing I noticed - the feeling of the space the music is happening inside of is almost as important as the music itself to the overall sound. Thank you again - the light bulb has turned on.
Before just now, I had decided in my mind that I was done spending money for the moment and I felt obliged to try to make do with what I had already bought, since I’ve spent a lot and I’ve bought some really powerful software. But that’s kind of dumb. It’s like I need to drill a hole in a piece of wood and I’ve bought all the best shovels and I’m going to make a hole with one of these shovels just because that’s what I have. No, I need a drill. Unfortunately, in my ignorance, I wasted money. I bought AUM, something I’ll probably never use. I love Symphony pro for composing. If Staffpad can import music xml, that’s perfect because symphony pro can export it. I have an Apple Pencil and symphony pro has the option to hand write just like staffpad but I don’t use it - I’d rather tap 1/16 note, then tap to insert the 1/16 note. But if staffpad has great instruments and the ability to voice them musically, that’s what I need and I already have Auria which will be able to touch up the piece as an audio file once staffpad reaches its limits.
I’ve bought a bunch of the iSymphonic sample packs - they’re around $15 each, generally around $1/instrument. They’re a big improvement over symphony pro, but the interface isn’t made for composing. It’s basically just a sample library. I heard the Berlin strings in someone’s YouTube video and they sound excellent, but what I think I understand now is the need for an interface geared toward the more classical music type composer. I think most of these apps are aimed at pop/electronic/hip hop, hence, the piano roll interface, whereas classical music is more linear over time.
So, lots of words to say: thanks. This is a hobby for me (obviously, I’m an ignoramus) and I only have an hour or two per night to work on music and for the last month, that time slot has literally been spent throwing money into the App Store and fighting with these apps. I haven’t written a note of music since symphony pro started lagging and being unable to play my file, launching this quest. I think that just getting the right software and getting back to basics will restore a lot of joy to my life.
@espiegel123 ,
Thanks for taking the time to fool around with my file. 8 of the tracks are supposed to be empty - the clarinet section which I deleted because it was causing lagging in symphony pro. I imported (again) the same file that was in drop box and after a bit of setting the instruments and adjusting volume levels and putting a reverb effect in, I got this:
https://youtu.be/nEDK6OSalQc
Skip to around 1:25 and you’ll hear the organ section just stops when you can see there are notes still there. The skipping and popping sound might be because I set the buffer speed down to around 56 (I read on some forum that lowering it helps import midi, I guess that’s not true). Overall, a lot of the midi data is just not there. I don’t know why this is but I think I’ve probably been trying to get Auria to do something it’s not meant to do and the takeaway seems to be that it’s better to work with audio files in Auria, rather than midi, or maybe I can use something like this Xequence, which I’d never heard of, to play the midi within Auria like Richtowns mentioned above with LK? It took me a while to get that through my head. Thanks again for all your help!
Where did you see that setting a low buffer would improve MIDI import? The audio buffers have to do with audio playback. I would be surprised if they have an impact on importing MIDI. Setting a low buffer makes your CPU have to work a lot harder. The only reason to set it low is to reduce realtime latency which usually only matters if you are playing in realtime. If you are playing back already recorded audio and/or MIDI, you want big buffers in order to reduce the load on the CPU. Crackles and pops are signs that the CPU can’t keep up.
(Note that screen capture will add to the load, too).
When you say that there is missing MIDI data, are there actually missing notes? Can you direct me to parts or sections where MIDI data is missing? I am not clear if you mean that it is not playing back correctly or if you can see that there are parts/notes missing? If you direct my attention to where that is the case, I will check to see if those parts import differently into something else.
The organ part plays from start to finish when I play it here — using the internal Lyra instrument as a test. This makes me think that you might want to do a little legwork to figure out if maybe the instrument you are sending to stops responding which migh indicate an issue with that app.
It is worth trying a few things:
@espiegel123 ,
The problem might actually be the iCathedral app in the case mentioned in the video above where the organ just stops playing around 1:25. Right before I recorded that video, I was playing through and all sound stopped and I found that the instrument setting had changed somehow. When I went back and re-set all the instruments, it played again.
Some examples of missing notes: the organ section on top stops at the 38th measure whereas it’s supposed to go to the 54th measure.
The vibraphone section from 65-76 mirrors the piano section and is missing:
The whole piece stops at the 79th measure in Auria but goes to the 114th measure in original:
This might have something to do with my having set the buffer so low? Am I correct that I need to set it to 512 for midi?
I couldn’t find where someone said adjusting it would help with midi imports. I’ve spent so many hours on this over the last month that I just don’t remember which forum it was on.
But I’ll try once again to import the tracks one at a time with buffer at 512. It looks like you were more successful than I was at importing. What did you have it set to?
When I imported the piece ,it went to measure 113. (See the pictures).
My buffer was either 512 or 1024. As I said for your use case there is no need to use a small buffer.
@MisplacedDevelopment ,
I have one more question if you don’t mind: if I understand correctly, your workflow is:
Is that correct?
What if you wrote your notation in something like Symphony Pro and then exported it as musicxml directly to Staffpad, the idea being to not have to do your notation in Staffpad’s difficult, handwriting only interface? Wouldn’t xml translate better than midi into staffpad? And then you could export Staffpad’s audio file to Nano for reverb, etc?
Have you seen Symphony Pro? I’ll show you a picture of their interface:
To enter a note, you choose the type of note (1/2, 1/4, etc) and tap the key on the piano you want. All the tracks are displayed to edit at any time. You can also use a stylus to hand write the notes (but I don’t do that).
Here’s another notation app called Notion, which functions similarly, also inexpensive:
I guess the question is: if midi isn’t good at expressing musical notations like your legato run example, why not use xml instead?
@ansonwoods The workflow I use at the moment is different depending on whether the piece I’m working on uses synths or orchestral instruments.
If I’m writing something which does not need to go near an orchestral instrument, e.g. a synth lead with some bassline then I would:
I do all of the writing in StaffPad (no MIDI involved) for songs or parts of songs that use instruments that StaffPad covers and export the WAV sounds for use elsewhere. I’m used now to its quirks so the note entry does not bother me.
I did use Notion before StaffPad and it did at least have a way of adding notes without a Pencil. I also liked the guitar interface it had. The problem is that the sounds do not match up to StaffPad and I would rather use the slightly more complicated notation entry of StaffPad and hear the great sounds vs having the easier input method provided by Notion and its sounds. I would then have the possibly frustrating task of trying to import data into StaffPad which I would want to avoid.
The people who made Notion missed a trick in my opinion by not allowing you to bring your own AU instruments. They could have at the very least exposed each track as a MIDI channel. If they had done this then my MTS workflow would have been viable in Notion.
I would personally avoid trying to import anything into StaffPad. For the piece you are working on then going the MusicXML route is the best route since there is a better chance of keeping the articulations. Note however that I have not done any importing into StaffPad and can only comment on what I have heard and that is that you may get unreliable results, or it may work perfectly!
It may actually be less stressful to use this as an opportunity to practice using the StaffPad interface and just transfer the music over by hand, section by section from a printed version of the score.
@MisplacedDevelopment ,
I understand now.
Well, I got StaffPad, Voxos and the Union Chapel organ and I’m blown away. If I’d known about this a month ago it would have saved a lot of time, money and frustration. I imported my file as musicxml with no real problems, but I’m still going to have to rewrite many parts because this app has completely expanded my idea of what’s possible writing music on a screen. This Union Chapel organ has 28 stops that you can “pull” at any point in the same track and it sounds amazing - for $30. There are 30 solfege syllables the voices can pronounce in Voxos and I can basically turn my 9 tracks of “choir aahs” into 9 different “people”. I can hardly believe it - it’ll take me years just to develop the skills to truly utilize this app.
Thanks again! This is exactly (and more than) what I was looking for.
A comparison if you’re interested:
https://youtu.be/IEdcckMzGPc
@ansonwoods I'm very pleased it worked out for you! Also interested to hear that the MusicXML import worked reasonably well, that's useful to know in case I feel like using Notion for writing some guitar bits.
I hope like me the extra realism you hear inspires you to write more. I can certainly hear a difference between the two apps in your video.
I would not be surprised to see some kind of Easter sale on at least the Cinesamples range as there was one over Black Friday/Christmas.
If you have not already found the list of syllables that you can make Voxos say then check page 5 of this manual https://cinesamples.com/file/productFile/file/olsa8ayi6v4drzsc9d2m2a7wboj.pdf
@MisplacedDevelopment ,
As far as I can tell the import was completely accurate and the only issues came with notes I wrote that were out of range of the instrument so I just have to transpose them up into range. I’m pretty sure that I’ll eventually have hundreds of dollars invested in this app but after the initial guilt, it feels like money well spent. Good to know about possible sales because I know I’m going to want a percussion, brass, woodwinds and strings library, and hopefully more synths will be added eventually. I stopped writing music when the app I was using was no longer able to play the piece I was working on and this app really does feel like enough possibilities to explore for a lifetime!