IDAM Behind Hub

Cambler

Hey Gang

I'm wondering if anyone has had luck using IDAM when using a hub attached to the iPad. My setup is as follows: 2020 iPad with Lightning to female USB adapter to Tp-Link powered USB 3 hub which goes out to Behringer UMC22 and then USB-A to either Lenovo dock or Apple Multiport Adapter on a Macbook Air M1. The Macbook will not see the iPad in this config. I can get IDAM working if I go iPad to Lightning to USB-A to Macbook adapter or dock so I know it's working on a base level.

Why do I care you ask? I want to be able to run my guitar through the various guitar AUv3's I have on the iPad and record in Logic. My other reason is to use the iPad version of Jam Origin Midi Guitar to drive (via midi) instruments and write midi in Logic projects iPad version is much cheaper and nearly 1:1 to the desktop version). The latter I may have worked out via using midi Network Sessions over wifi.

I've read other discussions on IDAM here however I'm still confused as to whether it's even possible to use IDAM while using an audio interface on the iPad. Really appreciate any input here.

Jumpercollins

I can only get idam to work with mine with a direct lighting connection between iPad and MacBook Pro. Would love to use a hub but that’s Apple for you.

Samu

IDAM unfortunately only works using a direct connection between the iPad/iPhone and Mac...

Cambler

Thanks so much for the feedback. Such a bummer. Still, I’m glad I discovered wifi midi for use with MIDI Guitar.I’m also looking forward to using IDAM to both drive (midi from MacBook end) and record iOS synths/instruments in Logic. I understand that this is doable.

uncledave

Let me try to explain. USB is a master-slave system. When you connect your iPad to gear, using the CCK, it is the master and the other devices are slaves. That's why our USB cables have different connectors on opposite ends. But the iPad supports a protocol called USB-OTG ("On the Go", cute). This lets it detect another master (your computer) and morph into a slave. This requiires a direct computer connection, since the iPad cannot be master and slave simultaneously. That's how both IDAM and iPad backup work. So it's not really Apple's fault; it's a basic USB limitation.

Things like the now discontinued iConnect devices are sort of magical. They implement a kind of bridge between two USB masters connected on different ports. They use a processor to buffer data, and act like a slave to both hosts. This allows them to transfer data in both directions, simulating an audio/MIDI interface on both sides.

Jumpercollins

@uncledave said:
Let me try to explain. USB is a master-slave system. When you connect your iPad to gear, using the CCK, it is the master and the other devices are slaves. That's why our USB cables have different connectors on opposite ends. But the iPad supports a protocol called USB-OTG ("On the Go", cute). This lets it detect another master (your computer) and morph into a slave. This requiires a direct computer connection, since the iPad cannot be master and slave simultaneously. That's how both IDAM and iPad backup work. So it's not really Apple's fault; it's a basic USB limitation.

Things like the now discontinued iConnect devices are sort of magical. They implement a kind of bridge between two USB masters connected on different ports. They use a processor to buffer data, and act like a slave to both hosts. This allows them to transfer data in both directions, simulating an audio/MIDI interface on both sides.

Great explanation must be a SME. Are the I connect boxes no more then?

oddSTAR

Very good explanation, @uncledave !

Curious to know if an adapter will interfere with an iDAM connection if you need to get a lightning > USB cable into a Thunderbolt Port for direct connection. Wish Apple gave us more ports on the Mini...

Korakios

@Cambler said:
Thanks so much for the feedback. Such a bummer. Still, I’m glad I discovered wifi midi for use with MIDI Guitar.I’m also looking forward to using IDAM to both drive (midi from MacBook end) and record iOS synths/instruments in Logic. I understand that this is doable.

I think bluetooth is much better than wifi midi
ethernet > bluetooth > wifi

Cambler

@Samu said:
IDAM unfortunately only works using a direct connection between the iPad/iPhone and Mac...

@uncledave said:
Let me try to explain. USB is a master-slave system. When you connect your iPad to gear, using the CCK, it is the master and the other devices are slaves. That's why our USB cables have different connectors on opposite ends. But the iPad supports a protocol called USB-OTG ("On the Go", cute). This lets it detect another master (your computer) and morph into a slave. This requiires a direct computer connection, since the iPad cannot be master and slave simultaneously. That's how both IDAM and iPad backup work. So it's not really Apple's fault; it's a basic USB limitation.

Things like the now discontinued iConnect devices are sort of magical. They implement a kind of bridge between two USB masters connected on different ports. They use a processor to buffer data, and act like a slave to both hosts. This allows them to transfer data in both directions, simulating an audio/MIDI interface on both sides.

Brilliant explanation - thanks. Science and rational thinking will prevent me from continuing to tinker, thinking I can somehow make it work

Cambler

@Korakios said:

@Cambler said:
Thanks so much for the feedback. Such a bummer. Still, I’m glad I discovered wifi midi for use with MIDI Guitar.I’m also looking forward to using IDAM to both drive (midi from MacBook end) and record iOS synths/instruments in Logic. I understand that this is doable.

I think bluetooth is much better than wifi midi
ethernet > bluetooth > wifi

I had not thought about midi over bluetooth. I'll have to do some research to see how it's done. Ethernet would be great as well although I'd have to get an adapter to plug into the iPad's hub (assuming this is workable/possible). Thanks for the tips!

uncledave

@Jumpercollins said:

@uncledave said:
Let me try to explain. USB is a master-slave system. When you connect your iPad to gear, using the CCK, it is the master and the other devices are slaves. That's why our USB cables have different connectors on opposite ends. But the iPad supports a protocol called USB-OTG ("On the Go", cute). This lets it detect another master (your computer) and morph into a slave. This requiires a direct computer connection, since the iPad cannot be master and slave simultaneously. That's how both IDAM and iPad backup work. So it's not really Apple's fault; it's a basic USB limitation.

Things like the now discontinued iConnect devices are sort of magical. They implement a kind of bridge between two USB masters connected on different ports. They use a processor to buffer data, and act like a slave to both hosts. This allows them to transfer data in both directions, simulating an audio/MIDI interface on both sides.

Great explanation must be a SME. Are the I connect boxes no more then?

Yeah. Check their website. The dual USB models are disco. They have some new ones aimed at digital audio distribution, like in a stage setup, but no suggestion of linking two computing devices.

Aud_iOS

I've had a different experience! IDAM works dandy with my hubs, even hubs with other downstream hubs work with IDAM just fine. Audio interface hubs work too, my AudioHub 2x4 and M-Audio Air both have hubs, and both handle IDAM fine.

uncledave

@Aud_iOS said:
I've had a different experience! IDAM works dandy with my hubs, even hubs with other downstream hubs work with IDAM just fine. Audio interface hubs work too, my AudioHub 2x4 and M-Audio Air both have hubs, and both handle IDAM fine.

I think the OP is asking about a hub connected to the iPad, so the Lightning connector is not available. A hub on the Mac side of IDAM should be no problem. Is that what you're describing?

michael_m

I think the problem is that you can only have one ‘master’ device on the hub, and that can be either the iPad or MacBook, but not both. However, you can connect the iPad directly to the MacBook as a slave.

Aud_iOS

@uncledave said:

@Aud_iOS said:
I've had a different experience! IDAM works dandy with my hubs, even hubs with other downstream hubs work with IDAM just fine. Audio interface hubs work too, my AudioHub 2x4 and M-Audio Air both have hubs, and both handle IDAM fine.

I think the OP is asking about a hub connected to the iPad, so the Lightning connector is not available. A hub on the Mac side of IDAM should be no problem. Is that what you're describing?

@uncledave Gotcha. Yeah, if that's the case then you wouldn't be able to use IDAM which needs the Mac to be the host. Behringer does make a Guitar-to-USB cable, and there's Lightning-to-USB B cables like these: https://amazon.com/MeloAudio-Compatible-Controller-Electronic-Microphone，5FT/dp/B07FLWN6G4/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=lightning+to+usb+host&qid=1616176200&sr=8-3. GL!

Cambler

Thanks to all for the discussion and tips. I will have to shelve my iPad + audio interface IDAM plans. So close! On the positive side a good chunk of my original vision is still in tact. Wifi midi seems to work fine for using Midi Guitar as a midi source for Logic (Midi Guitar doesn't seem to offer Bluetooth midi). I also managed to get IDAM setup last night so logic could sequence and pull in the audio for an iPad softsynth - so good!

The only remaining wish is to use the iPad as a guitar effects box and I guess I can just do this via analog means (iPad audio interface out to Macbook audio interface in). Who needs IDAM

nonchai

Sharing this grief- but this time with the latest M4 iPad Pro - trying to connect via a cal digit tb3+. thunderbolt dock.

In my case its impossible for me to plug my iPad directly to my Mac ( via a thunderbolt or usbC cable ) because my Mac is upstairs - connected by a LONG OPTICAL thunderbolt 3 cable - made by Corning - to my Caldigit thunderbolt3 dock downstairs:

When trying to connect to that over either thunderbolt or one of the USB C ( digital only no power ) it only works partially - and doesnt provide power -

even tried using BOTH of my two Caldigit thunderbolt3 hubs! - one for the mac mini - the other with the ipad connected as a thunderbolt HOST to the hub and then connecting one of the usbc or tb3 outputs into a usb 2, thunderbolt. or USBC ports..

but nothing works where power flows to the ipad!

forums and chatgpt suggest this is a common issiue
GAAH -

in any case i ended up a few days ordering an apple USB-C to headphone Audio out adapters ( none comes with the ipad ) , gettin out one of my good ole ART passsive mixers and just using an analogue feed from ipad- but not into the mac directly - just mixed with other stereo sources before the mix goes into the audiofuse

but the standard ( just under £10 ) USB C apple headphone audio adapter doesnt provide a way of simultaneously charging the ipad - so GAAAH -

Fortunately of courde the iPad has a decent battery life anyway but still - GAAH!

I believe theres 3rd pty usbC to headphone audio adapters that DO include a second USB C socket specifically to charge the ipad.. more money..

to be fair the digital part of this conundrum appears to be down to the use case being very untypical of what thunderbolt and usb hubs AND the MacOS is used to and designed to handle right now - but all the same - all seems a bit shit - considering both USBC and thunderbolt are suppoed to be advanced multi-configurable all purpose type connectivity standards…

GAAH

uncledave

@nonchai . Unfortunately, your iPad will not charge from a slave connection to a hub. USB-C 5VDC power flows in the normal way downhill from the host (or powered hub) to the USB slaves. The iPad is a computer (not a USB slave), so it will only accept power when a Power Delivery source (charger) has negotiated a connection with it.

Mo13

The direct wiring limitation makes it also unavoidable to cause a conflict with a usb-wired midi network like a Bome one.