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App to help me write Harmonies

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Comments

  • Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredrWrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

    @supadom said:

    Nah mate. It’s all BS. Im not going to get dragged into a A vs B drama. I don’t remember saying one is better than the other. You and @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr need to start reading posts properly. ;)

    You may want to reread my posts above, my esteemed colleague. I value and use both approaches. I encourage people to develop their ears because then you have a choice; you can either choose to render what you hear in your head, or you can choose to let the algorithm take the lead. They are both obviously equally valid procedures.

  • supadomsupadom

    @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @supadom said:

    Nah mate. It’s all BS. Im not going to get dragged into a A vs B drama. I don’t remember saying one is better than the other. You and @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr need to start reading posts properly. ;)

    You may want to reread my posts above, my esteemed colleague. I value and use both approaches. I encourage people to develop their ears because then you have a choice; you can either choose to render what you hear in your head, or you can choose to let the algorithm take the lead. They are both obviously equally valid procedures.

    Cool mate, I shouldn’t have included you in my response, sorry.

    Algos are one thing but simply trying things by drawing within the parameters of a given scale can stimulate creativity.

    I think we’re in agreement anyhow.

  • McDMcD
    edited May 2021

    Is the operative word here "write"? Do you write music or create MIDI arrangements or produce multi-tracked audio or some combination of the 3?

    The best way to get some harmony fast is to use an app that forces/filters all notes to a scale and then add notes either a 3rd or a 6th above or below in the selected scale and tweak the ones that sound a little odd or 2 jazz.

    root = 3rd above 6th below and 3rd below adds a 6th to the chord.
    3rd = 3rd above is the 5th and sixth below is the 5th again
    5th = 3rd above provides a major or minor/dominant 7th
    6th below is the 7 again

    I like to do this in Staffpad or a MIDI app... force the scale/key signature and slide a melody up or down a 6th and see if I like the combination. It's a very fast/mechanical way to generate traditional harmony lines.

    It's pretty easy to make a Mozaic script that adds the extra notes and @wim provides one called "The Chordulator" that sticks to the scale. But one that generates harmonies with push-buttons and outputs on distinct midi channels might be helpful to load up harmonies on instruments/tracks and
    sing what you hear and delete the instrument later.

    I've also be toying with making a Piano Motifs bass line in a key and adding harmonies that are mode in a parallel key that generates more jazz or Copland style harmonies.

    Like make a baseline on C:
    C Am F G
    and the harmonies
    G Em C Dm

    I save the C bass MIDI and use the accompaniment
    and generate a lot of MIDI melodies in G (I also get them in C along with the bass parts).

    Then I load up the lot of MIDI's using LK or Atom 2 (it's a lot of atom 2's vs 1 LK instance)
    and audition that parts... LK can group them into scenes and produce longer works with A, B, C scenes.

    It's all button pushing and very little theory. The different in scale selected in this case was a perfect 5th but the 3rd and 6th intervals will also produce interesting harmonic content to
    evaluate. The theory is enforced by Piano Motifs and @azul3D_Apps does a great job there and even offers extra features like notes to emphasize int the scale and extra chords that might lie outside the scale which is a completely different topic but relates to the compositional techniques film composers use since they often like to break the scale to surprise us or produce more unexpected results over a single scale.

    This is an example of the G over C bass progression above... I then added some live cello using a C mixolydian scale since the G melodies have that F# that lies outside the straight C major white let scale. It gets you closer to Aaron Copland or Gil Evans without the hours of music theory study.

    I pushed it a level further adding more melodies generated from E Dorian (1 sharp again) in Piano Motifs... even more Copland-esque:

  • Jusch1995Jusch1995

    @McD said:
    Is the operative word here "write"? Do you write music or create MIDI arrangements or produce multi-tracked audio or some combination of the 3?

    The best way to get some harmony fast is to use an app that forces/filters all notes to a scale and then add notes either a 3rd or a 6th above or below in the selected scale and tweak the ones that sound a little odd or 2 jazz.

    root = 3rd above 6th below and 3rd below adds a 6th to the chord.
    3rd = 3rd above is the 5th and sixth below is the 5th again
    5th = 3rd above provides a major or minor/dominant 7th
    6th below is the 7 again

    I like to do this in Staffpad or a MIDI app... force the scale/key signature and slide a melody up or down a 6th and see if I like the combination. It's a very fast/mechanical way to generate traditional harmony lines.

    I've also be toying with making a Piano Motifs bass line in a key and adding harmonies that are mode in a parallel key that generates more jazz or Copland style harmonies.

    Like make a baseline on C:
    C Am F G
    and the harmonies
    G Em C Dm

    I save the C bass MIDI and use the accompaniment
    and generate a lot of MIDI melodies in G (I also get them in C along with the bass parts).

    Then I load up the lot of MIDI's using LK or Atom 2 (it's a lot of atom 2's vs 1 LK instance)
    and audition that parts... LK can group them into scenes and produce longer works with A, B, C scenes.

    It's all button pushing and very little theory. The different in scale selected in this case was a perfect 5th but the 3rd and 6th intervals will also produce interesting harmonic content to
    evaluate. The theory is enforced by Piano Motifs and @azul3D_Apps does a great job there and even offers extra features like notes to emphasize int the scale and extra chords that might lie outside the scale which is a completely different topic but relates to the compositional techniques film composers use since they often like to break the scale to surprise us or produce more unexpected results over a single scale.

    Really nice explanation. I think it is something different that I want to do.

    In my workflow I normally make al Musik, than I sing all the lyrics by ear. That’s why I don’t know which notes the lyrics are. Now I want some harmonys. On desktop you would just go through real-Tune oder melodyne and Play around with the notes till I have something that sounds good. Then I sing this part in.

    Unfortunatly that’s not possible on iOS. So I want to do the same thing with a piano (or waves real-tune) to mimic. But that’s only possible if I know the original notes of the lyrics.

  • McDMcD

    @McD said:
    Is the operative word here "write"? Do you write music or create MIDI arrangements or produce multi-tracked audio or some combination of the 3?

    The best way to get some harmony fast is to use an app that forces/filters all notes to a scale and then add notes either a 3rd or a 6th above or below in the selected scale and tweak the ones that sound a little odd or 2 jazz.

    root = 3rd above 6th below and 3rd below adds a 6th to the chord.
    3rd = 3rd above is the 5th and sixth below is the 5th again
    5th = 3rd above provides a major or minor/dominant 7th
    6th below is the 7 again

    I like to do this in Staffpad or a MIDI app... force the scale/key signature and slide a melody up or down a 6th and see if I like the combination. It's a very fast/mechanical way to generate traditional harmony lines.

    I've also be toying with making a Piano Motifs bass line in a key and adding harmonies that are mode in a parallel key that generates more jazz or Copland style harmonies.

    Like make a baseline on C:
    C Am F G
    and the harmonies
    G Em C Dm

    I save the C bass MIDI and use the accompaniment
    and generate a lot of MIDI melodies in G (I also get them in C along with the bass parts).

    Then I load up the lot of MIDI's using LK or Atom 2 (it's a lot of atom 2's vs 1 LK instance)
    and audition that parts... LK can group them into scenes and produce longer works with A, B, C scenes.

    It's all button pushing and very little theory. The different in scale selected in this case was a perfect 5th but the 3rd and 6th intervals will also produce interesting harmonic content to
    evaluate. The theory is enforced by Piano Motifs and @azul3D_Apps does a great job there and even offers extra features like notes to emphasize int the scale and extra chords that might lie outside the scale which is a completely different topic but relates to the compositional techniques film composers use since they often like to break the scale to surprise us or produce more unexpected results over a single scale.

    @Jusch1995 said:

    @McD said:
    Is the operative word here "write"? Do you write music or create MIDI arrangements or produce multi-tracked audio or some combination of the 3?

    The best way to get some harmony fast is to use an app that forces/filters all notes to a scale and then add notes either a 3rd or a 6th above or below in the selected scale and tweak the ones that sound a little odd or 2 jazz.

    root = 3rd above 6th below and 3rd below adds a 6th to the chord.
    3rd = 3rd above is the 5th and sixth below is the 5th again
    5th = 3rd above provides a major or minor/dominant 7th
    6th below is the 7 again

    I like to do this in Staffpad or a MIDI app... force the scale/key signature and slide a melody up or down a 6th and see if I like the combination. It's a very fast/mechanical way to generate traditional harmony lines.

    I've also be toying with making a Piano Motifs bass line in a key and adding harmonies that are mode in a parallel key that generates more jazz or Copland style harmonies.

    Like make a baseline on C:
    C Am F G
    and the harmonies
    G Em C Dm

    I save the C bass MIDI and use the accompaniment
    and generate a lot of MIDI melodies in G (I also get them in C along with the bass parts).

    Then I load up the lot of MIDI's using LK or Atom 2 (it's a lot of atom 2's vs 1 LK instance)
    and audition that parts... LK can group them into scenes and produce longer works with A, B, C scenes.

    It's all button pushing and very little theory. The different in scale selected in this case was a perfect 5th but the 3rd and 6th intervals will also produce interesting harmonic content to
    evaluate. The theory is enforced by Piano Motifs and @azul3D_Apps does a great job there and even offers extra features like notes to emphasize int the scale and extra chords that might lie outside the scale which is a completely different topic but relates to the compositional techniques film composers use since they often like to break the scale to surprise us or produce more unexpected results over a single scale.

    Really nice explanation. I think it is something different that I want to do.

    In my workflow I normally make al Musik, than I sing all the lyrics by ear. That’s why I don’t know which notes the lyrics are. Now I want some harmonys. On desktop you would just go through real-Tune oder melodyne and Play around with the notes till I have something that sounds good. Then I sing this part in.

    Unfortunatly that’s not possible on iOS. So I want to do the same thing with a piano (or waves real-tune) to mimic. But that’s only possible if I know the original notes of the lyrics.

    You could investigate singing into a audio to MIDI app and then use these techniques to suggest suitable harmonies and once you find them... sing them into your DAW.

    Harmony is an advanced topic what most just never bother to learn and many just generate
    using their ears... sing and track... sing along and build a nice collection of sounds by ear.
    Many great songwriters (Joni Mitchell) comes to mind did everything by ear and never learned notation. Joni went into see very deep harmonic ideas without ever doing more than just trying alternate guitar tunings and tinkering at the piano. She has a great set of ears
    and created a genre that many followed using her as the inspiration for their music... David Crosby comes to mind and many, many more say they wanted to sound like Joni Mitchell.

    She had to hire jazz musicians to play the music they way she heard it. The rock guys didn't have the harmonic training to hear the extra notes she added to basic progressions.

  • michael_mmichael_m

    I think Joni Mitchell did have some formal piano background, but taught herself to play guitar, and said that she learned many harmonies because she tuned to open chords to make it easier to play with her polio-affected hand.

    Don’t remember the artist or album, but every now and then she mentions a jazz musician who she learned jazz harmony from by learning every note from the album.

    It’s definitely not that uncommon for someone with her talent to go that route and never formally learn the theory.

  • audiobussyaudiobussy
    edited May 2021

    @michael_m said:
    I think Joni Mitchell did have some formal piano background, but taught herself to play guitar, and said that she learned many harmonies because she tuned to open chords to make it easier to play with her polio-affected hand.

    Don’t remember the artist or album, but every now and then she mentions a jazz musician who she learned jazz harmony from by learning every note from the album.

    It’s definitely not that uncommon for someone with her talent to go that route and never formally learn the theory

    We are not talking about John Lee Hooker. I assure you Joni understands the theory. The proof's in the piano playing. She had a deep understanding by 12. Probably much younger.

  • hisdudenesshisdudeness

    @Jusch1995 said:

    @McD said:
    Is the operative word here "write"? Do you write music or create MIDI arrangements or produce multi-tracked audio or some combination of the 3?

    The best way to get some harmony fast is to use an app that forces/filters all notes to a scale and then add notes either a 3rd or a 6th above or below in the selected scale and tweak the ones that sound a little odd or 2 jazz.

    root = 3rd above 6th below and 3rd below adds a 6th to the chord.
    3rd = 3rd above is the 5th and sixth below is the 5th again
    5th = 3rd above provides a major or minor/dominant 7th
    6th below is the 7 again

    I like to do this in Staffpad or a MIDI app... force the scale/key signature and slide a melody up or down a 6th and see if I like the combination. It's a very fast/mechanical way to generate traditional harmony lines.

    I've also be toying with making a Piano Motifs bass line in a key and adding harmonies that are mode in a parallel key that generates more jazz or Copland style harmonies.

    Like make a baseline on C:
    C Am F G
    and the harmonies
    G Em C Dm

    I save the C bass MIDI and use the accompaniment
    and generate a lot of MIDI melodies in G (I also get them in C along with the bass parts).

    Then I load up the lot of MIDI's using LK or Atom 2 (it's a lot of atom 2's vs 1 LK instance)
    and audition that parts... LK can group them into scenes and produce longer works with A, B, C scenes.

    It's all button pushing and very little theory. The different in scale selected in this case was a perfect 5th but the 3rd and 6th intervals will also produce interesting harmonic content to
    evaluate. The theory is enforced by Piano Motifs and @azul3D_Apps does a great job there and even offers extra features like notes to emphasize int the scale and extra chords that might lie outside the scale which is a completely different topic but relates to the compositional techniques film composers use since they often like to break the scale to surprise us or produce more unexpected results over a single scale.

    Really nice explanation. I think it is something different that I want to do.

    In my workflow I normally make al Musik, than I sing all the lyrics by ear. That’s why I don’t know which notes the lyrics are. Now I want some harmonys. On desktop you would just go through real-Tune oder melodyne and Play around with the notes till I have something that sounds good. Then I sing this part in.

    Unfortunatly that’s not possible on iOS. So I want to do the same thing with a piano (or waves real-tune) to mimic. But that’s only possible if I know the original notes of the lyrics.

    Based on your workflow , even you are not aware of notes , you can try harmonizing/singing in thirds and fifths , which should be relatively straightforward , unless you have a chord progression which is complex

  • michael_mmichael_m

    @audiobussy said:

    @michael_m said:
    I think Joni Mitchell did have some formal piano background, but taught herself to play guitar, and said that she learned many harmonies because she tuned to open chords to make it easier to play with her polio-affected hand.

    Don’t remember the artist or album, but every now and then she mentions a jazz musician who she learned jazz harmony from by learning every note from the album.

    It’s definitely not that uncommon for someone with her talent to go that route and never formally learn the theory

    We are not talking about John Lee Hooker. I assure you Joni understands the theory. The proof's in the piano playing. She had a deep understanding by 12. Probably much younger.

    Seems like she’s always been a melting pot for all kinds of influences, but I’m pretty certain her start was formal piano lessons.

  • audiobussyaudiobussy

    @michael_m said:

    @audiobussy said:

    @michael_m said:
    I think Joni Mitchell did have some formal piano background, but taught herself to play guitar, and said that she learned many harmonies because she tuned to open chords to make it easier to play with her polio-affected hand.

    Don’t remember the artist or album, but every now and then she mentions a jazz musician who she learned jazz harmony from by learning every note from the album.

    It’s definitely not that uncommon for someone with her talent to go that route and never formally learn the theory

    We are not talking about John Lee Hooker. I assure you Joni understands the theory. The proof's in the piano playing. She had a deep understanding by 12. Probably much younger.

    Seems like she’s always been a melting pot for all kinds of influences, but I’m pretty certain her start was formal piano lessons.

    Agreed. And you have many good points about her predilection for open tunings. With that, she was probably a baby Mozart

  • Jusch1995Jusch1995
    edited May 2021

    Okay I tried midi guitar 2, but the Tracking is really bad. The midi it sends out is far from anything usable unfortunately. 20 bucks down the drain...

    This is the only part of iOS that’s really frustrating for me. Can’t believe there is not a single solution to track vocals, while there a thousands on desktop...

  • audiobussyaudiobussy

    @Jusch1995 said:
    Okay I tried midi guitar 2, but the Tracking is really bad. The midi it sends out is far from anything usable unfortunately. 20 bucks down the drain...

    This is the only part of iOS that’s really frustrating for me. Can’t believe there is not a single solution to track vocals, while there a thousands on desktop...

    Even for guitar, this needs a lot of tweaking especially on the input settings

  • hisdudenesshisdudeness

    @Jusch1995 said:
    Okay I tried midi guitar 2, but the Tracking is really bad. The midi it sends out is far from anything usable unfortunately. 20 bucks down the drain...

    This is the only part of iOS that’s really frustrating for me. Can’t believe there is not a single solution to track vocals, while there a thousands on desktop...

    Did you try adjusting sensitivity ?

  • Jusch1995Jusch1995

    @hisdudeness said:

    @Jusch1995 said:
    Okay I tried midi guitar 2, but the Tracking is really bad. The midi it sends out is far from anything usable unfortunately. 20 bucks down the drain...

    This is the only part of iOS that’s really frustrating for me. Can’t believe there is not a single solution to track vocals, while there a thousands on desktop...

    Did you try adjusting sensitivity ?

    Yes i did try to just anything and set it to mono. Still far from anything usable. Maybe it just works for guitar as it is intended...

  • MasangaMasanga

    @supadom said:
    I like vanilla though.

    No you don't.

  • supadomsupadom

    @Masanga said:

    @supadom said:
    I like vanilla though.

    No you don't.

    ^^^^ This!

  • Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredrWrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

    @Jusch1995 said:
    Okay I tried midi guitar 2, but the Tracking is really bad. The midi it sends out is far from anything usable unfortunately. 20 bucks down the drain...

    This is the only part of iOS that’s really frustrating for me. Can’t believe there is not a single solution to track vocals, while there a thousands on desktop...

    Thumbjam

  • McDMcD

    @Masanga said:

    @supadom said:
    I like vanilla though.

    No you don't.

    I think we have a vanilla supremist amongst us neopolitans. Tolerance is a virtue and as a group we have few of those. But opinions are like assholes and I R 1.

  • Jusch1995Jusch1995

    @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @Jusch1995 said:
    Okay I tried midi guitar 2, but the Tracking is really bad. The midi it sends out is far from anything usable unfortunately. 20 bucks down the drain...

    This is the only part of iOS that’s really frustrating for me. Can’t believe there is not a single solution to track vocals, while there a thousands on desktop...

    Thumbjam

    I have bought thumbjam, but I don’t get how I get the vocals as midi out In a convinient way. Is there a good way to get the midi into bm3?

    The best way would be if I can use the already tracked vocals in bm3, but I could sing it new in if it’s necessary.

  • McDMcD

    Just fr the record: an upcoming version of StaffPad will convert music in into musical notation. It probably helps if you can sing like a well tuned piano. Most of us sing like a one string wash tub bass. Pitch then becomes a statistical calculation which could benefit from
    machine learning... the machine will quickly learn "This dude cannot sing AF." but will be trained to say "Technical malfunction... assault me again."

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