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Midi bus AU

krassmannkrassmann
in General App Discussion

Is there an AU that you can recommend that allows to send Midi data around inside an AU host? I would like to use LK inside of Cubasis, have LK loaded in one Midi track and then have this AU in a Midi FX slot that would send LK‘s output to instances in other channel‘s Midi Fx and that it can be discriminated by Midi channel, so that I can send LK‘s output to the right instruments.

Comments

  • PaulinkoPaulinko

    MIDI Tools, StreamByter, or Mozaic.

  • MisplacedDevelopmentMisplacedDevelopment
    edited May 2021

    MIDI Bus or MIDI Route from the MIDI Tools app are the standard apps for routing MIDI outside of the DAW native routing.

    Coincidentally, I have wasted most of the afternoon trying to trigger Atom using PC messages inside Cubasis. Did not manage it, I hope you have more success!

    There was a bug mentioned on another thread where the output of every MIDI FX is sent when you route using the internal MIDI routing rather than only the last app in the chain, so that is something to be aware of.

  • krassmannkrassmann
    edited May 2021

    I tried with Midi Bus from Victor but it cannot filter by channel. All clips that play in LK go on the bus and then are received on the other side - all channels. Do you mean I should do a channel filter with Mozaic or Streambyter after the Midi Bus receiver? But then the problem that @MisplacedDevelopment pointed out messes it up.

  • MisplacedDevelopmentMisplacedDevelopment
    edited May 2021

    @krassmann Yeah, you will need something after the MIDI Bus on the receiving track(s) to filter on the MIDI channel. There might be a plugin to do this but a script would be more lightweight.

    Some further observations that may help you or others after finally managing to (sort of) do what I was trying to do:

    • Do not use internal MIDI routing if you are using MIDI Effect plugins. The output of each plugin in the chain is added to the routed MIDI so you will end up with many repeated notes. This is apparently a known issue and should hopefully be fixed in the next update.
    • If you are using StreamByter then state saving does not work. This means that you will need to reload your script each time you reload your project.
    • If you are using MIDI Bus then state saving also does not work. This means you will need to reset your sender/receiver config each time you reload your project. There is also a more general issue with MIDI Bus that I have seen when hosting it in DAWs where it seems to randomly reset its state even while the DAW is running.
    • When setting up the MIDI Effect chain for the first time, or when moving plugins around then you may find that MIDI Bus stops receiving data. If this happens then a Cubasis reload seems to unblock it.
    • Use MIDI Monitor to tell you what is flowing where.
    • There is some weird instability that is caused by adding/moving MIDI effects. The MIDI Bus sudden failure is one of them which I can sometimes fix by randomly adding (disabled) plugins after the MIDI Bus plugin (!?).
    • I have sometimes seen a flurry of MIDI data which looks like a feedback loop (10s of thousands of MIDI events). I have a feeling it happened on tracks where the MIDI In routing was set to listen on everything so it would advisable to disable MIDI In on tracks which are not expected to receive it.
    • MIDI CC 64/123 are sent when the transport is stopped. You may need to block these if they might mean something to a MIDI plugin.
    • EDIT: If you are using MIDI Bus, MIDI Clone, MIDI Route or MIDI Key Zone then make sure you add the plugins in the correct order first time. Moving instances of these plugins around can cause other plugin instances to get into a corrupt state so beware! I can reproduce this and have reported it on the main Atom 2 thread.

    I was able to work around all of the above but the killer issue for me was that I noticed on multiple occasions that my Atom instances were being swapped out with instances from other tracks. At first I thought I must have done something on the wrong track but it happened a couple of times after that. You need to go through some very deliberate steps to do this on purpose (export/import) and I certainly had not done that. I only had two tracks and suddenly they both had the same Atom instance running in them. I would not have been happy if I had been working on a song as I would have lost data. EDIT - As mentioned in the final bullet point above, this seems to be caused by some odd interactions when using some of the MIDI Tools plugins.

    For now I am going to move all of my MIDI out of CB3 and try feeding CB3 from AUM. I’ll test things again when the next patch drops.

  • MisplacedDevelopmentMisplacedDevelopment

    I thought I’d see if I could recreate the Atom thing I mentioned above and it seems that dragging an Atom instance to re-order it also causes it to reset, i.e. all patterns are deleted. It could therefore be that behaviour I was seeing rather than the cloning type behaviour I described above.

  • MisplacedDevelopmentMisplacedDevelopment

    @MisplacedDevelopment said:
    I thought I’d see if I could recreate the Atom thing I mentioned above and it seems that dragging an Atom instance to re-order it also causes it to reset, i.e. all patterns are deleted. It could therefore be that behaviour I was seeing rather than the cloning type behaviour I described above.

    Edit: Further weird that I can’t recreate this in a fresh project, only the one I’ve being playing with this morning...

  • krassmannkrassmann
    edited May 2021

    Thanks @MisplacedDevelopment for the detailed answer. So for me it seems to be the best approach to filter out the other channels with a Mozaic script. I did not get into Mozaic yet but now is the right time to start probably :)

    How would you use AUM together with CB? I once experimented with syncing them with the help of AudioBus. AUM and AB being synced with Ableton Link and Cubasis synced to AB with Midi clock. That basically worked but the Midi notes that gets from AUM to CB have a latency that I cannot compensate.

    Anyway I don‘t know if it makes sense at all to use LK inside of CB. My vision is to jam with the clips and then recording the jam to the timeline at some point. Doing that in CB would allow to reuse all the instruments and FX similar as in Ableton Live or Zenbeats. Recreating the whole instrument setup from AUM in CB would be very time consuming. Recording audio stems from AUM into CB seems to be the best working approach but of course reduces the flexibility a lot. Especially synth automation over the arrangement is quite impossible then.

  • MisplacedDevelopmentMisplacedDevelopment
    edited May 2021

    I was thinking of just sending MIDI notes from AUM to CB3 tracks listening on channels 1-16 but may just abandon CB3 for this way of working for now and go back to NS2. Synchronisation would not be a problem for me until I start adding things inside CB3 that might need to start in sync such as automation, but even then it may not be a big issue while putting the song together. I would host all MIDI in AUM and this should be in sync at least as it enters CB3. If I want notes on the CB3 timeline then I would be more likely to record then into Atom inside AUM and then import the MIDI into CB3.

    I have only recently purchased CB3 and do want to get some use out of it at some point!

    As you say, there are advantages to bringing some of this type of workflow into the DAW. I was hoping to be able to use the inbuilt features of CB3 with the flexibility that Atom offers but at the moment I may as well stick with Atom + AUM or use Atom + NS2 for its DAW features.

  • tahichetahiche

    @krassmann said:
    Thanks @MisplacedDevelopment for the detailed answer. So for me it seems to be the best approach to filter out the other channels with a Mozaic script. I did not get into Mozaic yet but now is the right time to start probably :)

    How would you use AUM together with CB? I once experimented with syncing them with the help of AudioBus. AUM and AB being synced with Ableton Link and Cubasis synced to AB with Midi clock. That basically worked but the Midi notes that gets from AUM to CB have a latency that I cannot compensate.

    Anyway I don‘t know if it makes sense at all to use LK inside of CB. My vision is to jam with the clips and then recording the jam to the timeline at some point. Doing that in CB would allow to reuse all the instruments and FX similar as in Ableton Live or Zenbeats. Recreating the whole instrument setup from AUM in CB would be very time consuming. Recording audio stems from AUM into CB seems to be the best working approach but of course reduces the flexibility a lot. Especially synth automation over the arrangement is quite impossible then.

    So you want to have clips ala Zenbeats but midi?. I guess you want to consolidate whatever performance in LK to be able to further edit, add automation, etc. Right?. Sounds good to me.

    @MisplacedDevelopment If you are using MIDI Bus then state saving also does not work. This means you will need to reset your sender/receiver config each time you reload your project. There is also a more general issue with MIDI Bus that I have seen when hosting it in DAWs where it seems to randomly reset its state even while the DAW is running.

    I can confirm this, drives me nuts.

    About the midi channel filer... So MidiBus doesn’t respect the track channel filter, right?. Makes sense since it’s doing it’s own routing. I just checked all the plugins included in Victor’s suite and you’re right, there’s no way to filter by channel. So I guess you do need a Mozaic or similar which seems overkill for the use case.

  • krassmannkrassmann
    edited May 2021

    @tahiche said:

    @krassmann said:
    Thanks @MisplacedDevelopment for the detailed answer. So for me it seems to be the best approach to filter out the other channels with a Mozaic script. I did not get into Mozaic yet but now is the right time to start probably :)

    How would you use AUM together with CB? I once experimented with syncing them with the help of AudioBus. AUM and AB being synced with Ableton Link and Cubasis synced to AB with Midi clock. That basically worked but the Midi notes that gets from AUM to CB have a latency that I cannot compensate.

    Anyway I don‘t know if it makes sense at all to use LK inside of CB. My vision is to jam with the clips and then recording the jam to the timeline at some point. Doing that in CB would allow to reuse all the instruments and FX similar as in Ableton Live or Zenbeats. Recreating the whole instrument setup from AUM in CB would be very time consuming. Recording audio stems from AUM into CB seems to be the best working approach but of course reduces the flexibility a lot. Especially synth automation over the arrangement is quite impossible then.

    So you want to have clips ala Zenbeats but midi?. I guess you want to consolidate whatever performance in LK to be able to further edit, add automation, etc. Right?. Sounds good to me.

    Exactly. I really like Cubasis and I prefer it over Zenbeats. With Zenbeats I can not record or edit CC automation without overwhelming Zenbeats. I reported that. Launchpad also not supported. The new Midi routing and sidechaining of CB 3.3 makes it really the best choice for timeline based Midi/audio projects. But I want the easy creative development of phrases with a clip based sequencer that I can operate with my Launchpad.

    @MisplacedDevelopment If you are using MIDI Bus then state saving also does not work. This means you will need to reset your sender/receiver config each time you reload your project. There is also a more general issue with MIDI Bus that I have seen when hosting it in DAWs where it seems to randomly reset its state even while the DAW is running.

    I can confirm this, drives me nuts.

    Me too… please @blueveek to the rescue. AU state saving and channel filter on the receiver side. Maybe that’s not such a big change?

    About the midi channel filer... So MidiBus doesn’t respect the track channel filter, right?. Makes sense since it’s doing it’s own routing. I just checked all the plugins included in Victor’s suite and you’re right, there’s no way to filter by channel. So I guess you do need a Mozaic or similar which seems overkill for the use case.

    I don’t think Mozaic is a heavy weight app. The problem is the missing state saving of Midi Bus.

  • MisplacedDevelopmentMisplacedDevelopment
    edited May 2021

    I started trying to emulate your workflow @krassmann and found the following:

    • LK seems to behave correctly, sending out notes on the expected channels
    • You could use a StreamByter script like this on each receiving track to filter on channel:

    X1-F = XX +B

    (Means block channels 2-16, allowing 1 in. Would be easier with a simple IF chl = x test, I’ll need to look up the correct syntax for that)

    • Even without the StreamByter script then notes would randomly be dropped between MIDI Bus instances.
    • I saw another instance of the MIDI feedback loop thing I mentioned earlier. This time all tracks had external MIDI input disabled so I suspect it was something to do with MIDI Bus.
    • I @blueveek earlier today in the Atom thread about Atom instances being reset when moving MIDI Bus around but this seems to affect other plugins too, e.g.
    1. Add MIDI Bus to track 1, then add a Mozaic script with some random data added to the code window
    2. Do the same as (1) but on a second track, adding different data to the Mozaic window
    3. Drag the MIDI Bus to the bottom of the chain in the first track.
    4. The Mozaic in track 1 now has the state of the one in the second track. EDIT: it doesn’t always work like this first time but if you then move MIDI Bus back to slot 1 in the chain then you should see that Mozaic has either taken on the state of the other instance or has reset its state.

    I don’t know why MIDI Bus specifically causes this and I’ll try a few other plugins to see if there are any others but I get the feeling it is an innocent bystander here, at least for this specific bug. I would say though that I have seen it randomly forget its settings in NS2 as well so there is probably something else going on there.

    Are you able to recreate this bug @krassmann ?

  • MisplacedDevelopmentMisplacedDevelopment

    Further to the above, if I then start moving Mozaic around then my MIDI Bus takes on the settings of the other MB plugin instance...

  • MisplacedDevelopmentMisplacedDevelopment
    edited May 2021

    Tested a load more plugins, so far MIDI Clone & Filter + MIDI Route + MIDI Key Zone are the only others that have this strange effect when tested in place of MIDI Bus.

  • MisplacedDevelopmentMisplacedDevelopment
    edited May 2021

    @LFS I realise I did not @ you for this issue. Please see the simple 4 step recreate a couple of posts back where simply moving the order of certain plugins around is corrupting the state of others in the MIDI chain. Is this something that will be fixed in the upcoming patch?

    Edit: reported on Steinberg forum:

    https://forums.steinberg.net/t/reordering-certain-plugins-causes-others-to-lose-corrupt-state/720836

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