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Maybe some competition for the iPad -- finally.
I'm starting to work on a couple of hardware based projects that I want to be able to control from both iOS and Android devices, so I've been looking for viable Android tablets. I still haven't found one of those, but I did come across this:
https://en.jingos.com/jingpad-a1/
It runs Ubuntu with a bit of a custom desktop environment that very much mimics iPadOS. The processor is a 4 big 4 little ARM SoC that looks like it would be around A10 or A11 (Apple SOC's) level for audio work. It's the first Linux based tablet that looks like it might be usable for audio production.
I'm intrigued. They past their funding goals on Indiegogo and claim to be ready to ship over the next couple of weeks. Anyone know anything about this?
Oh yeah, are there any Android tablets out there that aren't overpriced for what they are and have a UI latency that doesn't suck? I need it to be upgradable OS wise to the latest Android. I don't even need it to do audio.
Comments
It's not about the OS, it's about the apps!
I’ll need to check this out for the most important question since ‘will it play crisis?’, ‘will it blend?’ (run blender 3D)
True -- and that's part of the point for me. It can run apps I can't run on iOS, Faust for example. But, for the wider iOS ecosystem, someone has to put out a viable tablet before the devs even have anything to work with.
It should definitely be able to blend. Don't know how well though, looks to be based on a PowerVR GPU. The OS will run on x86 based tablets/systems too.
I tried the Linux music thing at one time- not a time I want to revisit. Way too fractured and too much emphasis on how little latency a system can theoretically achieve and not nearly enough emphasis on how much work you can actually finish.
One of the things I liked about early OS's was
the ability to remove everything non essential.
It's a pity that Apple doesn't allow modifying iOS
as I would rip out everything except the
stuff needed to run the audio and visual apps.
@NeonSilicon Yes, it can work as long as you have certain apps in mind that run on the new platform. And it can be fun, but it won't replace the iPad.
Many hate Win 10 but I'd rather go for a cheap Win 10 touch tablet and use only apps that work well enough on a touch screen.
I'm still evaluating some of my existing and some new music software from a totally new viewpoint: Touch compatibility.
Times have changed, a bit. I once put together a pretty nice system to use for Linux audio. I converted it to a Hackintosh after about a year mostly because of the issues you mentioned. A big difference is that the base Ubuntu system is good enough now to make it so you don't need to go down the RT kernel path to do audio work. It's definitely not a Mac still, but you can use it without most of the old issues. There are more decent DAW's available now too and the ability to more easily use VST's.
I'm still not a Linux fan in general, but it has some strengths now.
Interesting. If latency is low and it can run interesting apps. But Ubuntu can’t run most usual desktop music software (Live, Cubase, Logic…), except Reaper (but it will be cramped on 11 inches). It can be a great platform for music apps development, but who will buy those apps? At what price? So who will make them? iOS/iPadOS is already a niche environment, we have to make compromises as musicians and/or devs all the time but it has already some very great apps and modularity after all those years, it’s a rich and inspiring ecosystem to make music with, even if it’s still « bugs reporting », « workarounds city » and « fear of updating » world!!!
But again that « iPad Pro like » JingPad looks interesting and promising at least on paper 📝
Competition is always good for buyers, but as far as I’m concerned there is really no serious competition for the iPad as it is today.
Forget about this - don’t want to be too rude, but, everybody have talked about Linux (Ubuntu ect) for 30 years now, and, it’s not an wide success yet, a lot of Pro apps are missing, the developers doesn’t earn the right money etc etc…
Linux - it will never ever be something that can replace iPad… iPadOS is also an variation of Linux, but, an successful one!
Definitely true. I haven't found a single useful alternative to the iPad for audio work in a touch based tablet system yet. I'm still hopeful though.
As far as success goes, Linux is far more successful than macOS, iOS, and iPad OS combined. It's the basis of Android. Most of the servers on the internet today are Linux. Every supercomputer is Linux. Valve's new portable game system/computer is based on Arch. I'm not saying it's better than iOS, but it is certainly successful.
And just as a note, IOS and macOS don't have anything from Linux in them. The kernel is Mach based and the user land is BSD. I think that's important because it's a big part of the reason that macOS is actually better than Linux for everything I care about.
I'm totally open to adding in a touch based Windows solution to my plans. It can't cost too much and I'd prefer if it were really tablet focused. I haven't really found one of those either. I've been kinda looking at the Surface Go's. I am somewhat waiting for the Arm based Windows stuff to hit, because I'd prefer that. Any suggestions of things to look into?
People buy platform, app collection and ecosystem - not hardware or brand.
I tell people - if you want great hardware and specs, go for Samsung; if you want great apps and ecosystem, got for iOS.
I assume you're ware of it, and not sure what you mean by "waiting for ARM based Windows stuff to hit", but the Surface Pro X has already been around a couple years, I think. Expensive, fast running native apps (not so fast with emulation) and good battery life. Not for me, but I can see some people liking it.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/surface-pro-x/8qg3bmrhnwhk?activetab=pivot:processortab
https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/23/21526702/microsoft-surface-pro-x-2020-review-arm-windows-10-apps-features-specs-price
XDA is a good resource for finding Android devices you can root and install custom ROMs - https://www.xda-developers.com/android-11-custom-rom-list
Amazon tablets can be found dirt cheap, but I'm not sure how "hackable" they are these days. Lenovo tablets can often be found cheap, as well.
Yeah, by "waiting for ARM based Windows stuff to hit", I mean other hardware vendors to bring down the price. Hardware wise, I think the Surface stuff is pretty good. But, I'm looking at this from the experimentation point-of-view now so I don't want to spend that kind of money yet.
Thanks!
https://non.tuxfamily.org
I've recently purchased a Lenovo X1 with an Intel 7Y57 CPU and 500GB SSD/8GB RAM, refurb (like new) for € 280 including a nice and precise stylus and a backlit keyboard. I've chosen that CPU because I wanted halfway acceptable battery life but to make it a fun experience, there's much more to it than just install a few apps.
CPU efficiency and touch friendly UIs have suddenly become substantial criteria.
I'm still busy checking out different options.
While the M1 is basically a no-brainer on MacOS and iOS because developers hardly have any other chance but to support it, I'm much more hesitant to make a guess what the software landscape on the M1 Windows side will look like in 2 or 3 years.
Currently in the Android tablet market, Samsung S series are the leading brand. That said they usually only get 2-3 years of updates.
Android OS is one of the most fragmented OS. You have users running devices from Android 4, and even manufacturers have their own iteration of software.
If you wanted to get the latest, you could get a newer Samsung S series. Not the A series though...can’t recommend them as the regular iPad crushes it from my personal experiences.
You could also install a custom OS of Android. I’m hesitant on that because while it would be decent for software testing, you won’t get a native experience of how your application would work.
That said, the phones are usually ahead of the tablets, and have a farther reach. I would have gone the mobile phone route. For the phones, LG and sometimes Sony has the best audio codec chips, Samsung is more brand known, and Google currently has the best software support and lowest latency.
I would probably take the reverse route. Try and design the application to work on a base OS. I believe @elf_audio re-did Koala to work on Android 6 and above, as per the App Store requirements.
For music production, agree, it's all about apps and ecosystem. As an alternative music environment, VCV on PC is the best experience I've found. It's modular and flexible. If I lower the frame rate, I can run it pretty well on my Surface 6. Maybe this tablet can run VCV.
Is it possible to create an OS that's designed only for music apps
based on Linux which could also be iOS compatible?
or do you think it would be better to create an entirely new OS
that's focused on music and visuals that could be installed
on Android compatible devices?
Sounds like this would the most stable route
to take with the current OS's available.
Nothing is impossible. That said, companies tend to protect their software really well. If this was a question relating to older iOS, then sure..probably. Newer ones, maybe, but it's increasingly difficult especially with the new iOS updates which was added on all applications.
The main things I'd look into are
Time investment in replicating an iOS update - Biggest problem. Apple consistently invests heavily into fortifying their security that it becomes increasingly impossible. Which, is honestly fine. Say someone gets a workaround for iOS 11 for example, Apple raises their standards so that apps only work using iOS 13.
Fallout from actually getting it to work - Why pay for an app when it's already out there for the world to download?
Replicating touch screen on another device - The Mac M1 has already presented a hurdle on how iOS apps are not designed for Mac OS. Migrating it to another platform would just open up a massive challenge for a minimal amount of gain.
Honestly, I don't have the right answer to that question. It is worth thinking of...that said, for a lot of projects, it's probably much easier to buy older iPhones than it is to invest heavily on the software R&D.
@Gravitas of course it‘s possible to taylor a Linux down to a specific purpose:
that‘s what Akai does with the MPCs and Synology with their NAS boxes.
(just to name 2 popular examples with some reputation and success)
It didn‘t happen overnite, though
I've played around with this one in the past. It's an interesting approach.
AMD APU based systems are a possible path for me. The new Valve Steam Deck shows that this has some good potential. I'd really like to go with ARM, but most of the ARM world is a couple years at least behind what Apple has now.
I was thinking along the lines of an entirely new OS or
maybe taking an existing OS and taking out the things that are
not necessary and streamlining the entire OS for music and video.
Some apps are written in assembly which can make them blisteringly fast.
Remove the gumph of an interactive GUI or bypass that entirely and communicate
directly to the hardware and it speeds things up considerably.
Agreed, it could very well be easier to buy older iphones than invest heavily into software R&D.
If it’s not broken, don’t fix it.
Thank you.
I didn’t know this.
I remember back in the day there were a range of keyboards that had custom windows in them.
Timbaland was one of the endorsers of their range,
I can’t remember offhand the company but they were the first ones to have
software that could autosample external keyboards etc.
I hadn’t seen anything similar until I landed on the iOS platform.
Yeah, Android is still pretty much a mess for audio work. I'm not looking for an Android tablet to run audio on though. I'm mainly looking for something to use for a Logic Remote like interface to different hardware devices I want to run the audio on.
I can't do Samsung though. When we moved into our new house, we bought a Samsung refrigerator, washer, and dryer. I've repaired the dryer once or twice per year every year, the fridge was unrepairable and is now in a dump, and the washing machine is making horrific noises and the repairs will be expensive, so it's heading to the dump too. Never again will a buy anything from Samsung.
Some steps forward in making Linux more suitable for audio production? Maybe.
Competition for the iPad? Nowhere near.
For all the reasons noted above.
This is pretty much the end goal for the hardware stuff I'm experimenting with now. A want a small mobile device that is just for audio. I'm thinking of a very stripped down FreeBSD system with the audio interface built in to the device. I want to run the UI and control the software on the box exclusively from separate phones, tablets, and desktop computers.