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iOS guitar multi fx vs The actual hardware versions?
Wondering what your thoughts are? You can almost buy an empire of iOS multi effects with amp simulators and all the rest of it for the price of just one boutique distortion pedal. If say you are not using them for a live gig (even though there is that option) but only for recording in a studio environment then surely it is a no brainier.... or is it?
Can the sound of one of these pedals be unmatched in the world of software and be easily worth the investment? Can they be so much better that they can command the big bucks prices?
I mean the price difference can be huge.... but the actual pedals still seem to sell by the bucketload - so there must be something substantial that stacks up.
I am genuinely confused. I’m thinking of making a small foray into the world of ‘real’ pedals, though I have a concern that it could soon become a very expensive pursuit. - is there a clear sense of whether or not this is a good idea? Or what are your thoughts?
Comments
I forgot to add- I’m not intending to use them for guitar - but for playing synths through them.... you know - bassline etc type of things 😛
In some cases the sound of an analog pedal is at least something that hasn't been matched yet in software. For some things software there aren't any pedals that are even close.
The one thing I think is definitely true is that the hugely expensive pedals aren't worth the price outside of maybe being a collector's item. There are pedals that sell for hundreds that are simply lifted from old circuits or product sheets that consist less than 5 dollars in parts. These things are easy to build yourself or even pickup as cheap clones.
If you are going to use them for synths, you might end up needing to do some level matching on the inputs and outputs.
There will always be purists who will tell you that the only way to achieve the “perfect” tone is through analog gear. I’m of the belief that if it makes YOU happy, it’s good enough. Sure, if you play the sounds one after the other you’ll probably hear a difference, but if the sounds you can make digitally inspire you to create music that you enjoy I can’t see paying a premium for a single pedal that may or may not be what you are looking for.
The old analog pedals are worth it, imo, since they sometimes have that nonlinearity in the old chips that makes them sound different. Put two old BBD delays of the same model next to one another, they'll usually sound slightly different. Plus old pedals haven't risen to absurd prices yet, at least with old EHX, MXR, DOD pedals.
One thing to be watch out for is that most of those old pedals are looking for a hi-z/low-output signal, like from an electric guitar with passive pickups like a Tele or Les Paul, so the low-z/high-output line-level signal from a synth might sound distorted. Impedance may be a factor too. Noise too.
Fun trick is that different 9V batteries will sound different. Starving the pedal of power can sound cool.
TC Electronic has a new range of analog pedals with true bypass and full-metal jackets for dirt cheap. I think they're owned by Behringer now. There's even one that's a ripoff of the Chandler Tube Driver with a 12AX7 inside for $45.
Link.
And collecting physical stuff is fun. Like shoes and jewelery. Way cheaper than Eurorack.
A general hint for classic guitar pedals:
as mentioned they expect an input load from a guitar pickup (called impedance) in a range from 10-50 KOhm, while a line output is typically 1-5 kOhm or less than 100Ohm (headphone).
This is not an electrical problem, but the circuit may react somewhat different.
In critical cases use a transformer to compensate the difference, like a reversed passive guitar DI box (synth plugged in to the output of the DI and the DI‘s output is plugged into the pedal‘s input, just to illustrate the idea).
To a lower degree this may also apply to a synth‘s output stage, if it expects a typical line load, but „sees“ the high impedance of the pedal input 200kOhm to 1 MegOhm, which is almost an open circuit for some stages.
The pedal input has such a high impedance (roughly 10x the guitar pickup‘s) to not „load“ the coils of the pickup too much, which would alter the sound in (usually) an unpleasant way.
It's all bollocks, if it sounds better to you , use it. there is no standard that works for everybody. Everyone's ears are different and everyone's taste is different , and that is a good thing.
I like both, i have a ton of iOS effects, amp sims etc, but I bought a pedal board a few months back and I’m loving using it. I don’t use it exclusively but lately sometimes I just want to plug in, come up with a sound and commit to it, just record it to an audio track like I used to do back in my early days before we had a ton of plugins and options.
Same thing with synths, I have a ton of iPad synth but I bought a few analog synths and I just record them to Audi tracks and call it a day. It’s something a little liberating with just recording and not worrying about cpu and whatnot. It’s definitely limitIng in other ways, not being about to edit midi, changing or editing the sound afterwards.
Anyway the pedalboard I bought is the Boss Me 80. It’d not a high end crazy expensive board but to me it sounds great going thru the right IPad amp sim. It’s was like $300 and has a ton of different pedal fx built in and what I really love about it is that it has a lot of knobs to turn and play with, not a ton of menu diving.
I’ve worked in guitar shops for 25 years. I now own a Squier strat and a few apps. The Fenders and the Hiwatt amps are gone. I am happy.
I used tone stack IAA for a while including live but latency was not fun. Not much latency of the app itself but delay added by loopy. That led me to buying Zoom G2nx and I love it to bits. It’s very straight forward and capable pedal with such a small footprint. Definitely a tweaker’s gear.
Software will almost always be ahead of the curve in terms of amp/cab sims but also quite a bit more expensive option.
I appreciate that it’s what I like and want myself - I was just trying to gauge if the difference was worth taking on the potentially heavy investment for.
I see for example that Nembrini are bringing out a Rat clone in the near future. How close can. we expect that to be to an actual Rat? I’m not sure what to expect. A little bit off? Quite close? Can’t tell the difference? Way off but still in the same ballpark? Is it crazy to think that they might be almost indistinguishable?...... I really don’t have a clue as to the answer.
Let me ask it this way. Our dear old friend the Boss DS1 as an example. Is there anything in the app world that sounds quite like it - clones or otherwise?
While nuances in sound might be the deciding factor in some cases, I’m finding that the actual, physical use case is becoming an interesting differentiator: how is the experience of playing “wrapped” in a (physical) user interface?
I “play” (ahem) guitar, and I have an iPad with (for me) a dizzying array of apps that can make lots of interesting sounds. I also have a Yamaha THR10 desktop modelling amp and exactly TWO pedals — a warbly TC Electronic Nether octaver and a scratchy Vox wah.
On one hand, you could say that compared to the more advanced amp sims available on the iPad, the THR is simply redundant — essentially a bunch of less flexible software (the usual simulated amp suspects with a few effects) connected to a controller with some knobs and a powered speaker — but the plug-and-playability of the THR as an object is something I find amazing. I interact with the music in a different way — less fiddling, etc. I can record the output of the THR on my iPad because it’s also an audio interface, but it’s almost a different mode of music-making. It’s not a “real” amp, but compared to how I use the iPad, it might as well be.
I think the same applies to my dodgy pedals. I only have two, and adding this very limited palette to my signal chain has a lovely tactility and elegance to it. (Even if I had hundreds of pedals, the physical constraints of chaining them still limits things in a handy way.) I can almost hear them murmuring to each other: “heh, we’re so ingenious, the two of us”. And while I value the “black boxing” of the Yamaha’s built-in effects in comparison to a bunch of (admittedly) cool iPad apps, using actual analogue boxes takes that black boxing to another level, obviously. Yes, there’s an irreducible sonic quality to the weird randomness of the Nether’s questionable tracking ability, and the wah’s “I need a new pot” fuzziness can be interestingly temperamental, but that’s not the whole reason for going “real analogue pedal” for me.
@ocelot
Do you know why foot pedals sound different when using different types of 9v batteries?
@Gravitas Never gave it much thought...maybe the varying voltages make the electrons more jumbled, affecting the analog circuitry inside differently?
(Reminds me of 'starved-plate' tube designs, and how feeding them too little voltage results in distorting the tube). But then I read that a pedal's 200mA power supply can somehow be converted to 300V. Way over head - can you explain it?
@robosardine Grind by AD can nail the DS1. Probably Rat too, never tried.
Overdrive and voltage sag. The clipping in a circuit is often set by the voltage level available for headroom. To some degree you can get a bit of difference by the current drive available from the power source too, but most of these circuits draw so little power that this doesn't matter much.
The early Ge fuzzes are pretty famous for how they change with voltage available from the battery.
Sounds quite feasible.
If one were to use Ohm's Law 'V=IR' then it could be possible.
V = voltage
I = Impedance
R = Resistance
I think one would need to keep the
current (impedance) constant and change
the resistance to create an increase in voltage.
Possibly using a step down or step up transformer
I can't remember which way it's supposed to go.
That would be some transformer.
How to do it? is not within my remit so let's get hold of a physicist for that one.
@Gravitas Thanks for laying out Ohm's Law. I've been wondering about that lately. Reminds me that chaining a bunch of pedals can trash your tone.
@NeonSilicon Thanks for the info.
Does your reply above explain how Eddie Van Halen's Variac on his big Marshall heads gave him that big 'tube sag' sound? And how a tube rectifier 'sounds better' than a solid-state one?
https://ultimateclassicrock.com/eddie-van-halen-reveals-his-biggest-lie/
To increase the voltage, you need a transformer or a charge pump device that stores energy in an inductor or capacitor. The transformer needs to be an AC circuit. The charge pump type devices will clock the power input to work.
I have a circuit that takes a LiPo battery voltage in moves it to 18V for running active pickups. It works by using a tiny little transformer and an IC that turns the DC input voltage into a very high frequency AC (pretty much square wave) voltage. The transformer then jacks up the voltage based on the windings ratio of the two sides.
Ahhh....
Good to know.
Oh very cool.
I have no idea about the Van Halen thing. I don't know how he was supposed to have wired it in. But, definitely for the tube rectifier changing the sound. The solid state rectifiers are faster from everything I've read. This is going to alter the response, distortion, and compression in the circuits. I can't say if it makes anything better or not. I've had amps of both types that I liked equally well. I can't even remember what my favorite amp had in it. I should go look that up.
Thanks NeonSilicon. You remind me of Ken Stone back in the day, willing to answer questions and share your knowledge.
I think folks carried Variacs with them to other countries so they could use their early (deadly) hair dryers. Between the power cable and wall outlet.
Attenuators or 'power soaks' are another interesting thing, between the amp and speaker cab. Just a bunch of copper, aka dummy speaker that soaks up the power. That way you can crank the amp to get that power tube overdrive (not preamp tube) and resulting tube sag.
Ken Stone the modular synth guy? Thank you for the compliment but I'm sure I've learned a lot more by looking at his designs and schematics than I've ever passed on to others.
I had always assumed that Van Halen had the variac stuck in there to alter the output transformer. That would have been really nuts and very hard on the amp. Still, putting the variac on the input power would have been hard on the tubes. The bias would be really messed up. But, lowering the input voltage makes more sense than hitting it with too much voltage. That would have probably blown most of the caps.
Turns out that my fav amp, the Ampeg Gemini VI, used a solid-state rectifier. It also looks like there are some for sale out there. Probably better if I hadn't seen that. Some of them are in really good shape for an amp from the 60's. I can't see spending the money on them though, You can get great amps now for a fraction of the price people are asking. Still, I think it's pretty cool that some of them are out there still working. I bought mine from an older farmer who had it stored in his barn. He had used it for accordion.
I don't know if your question about the Rat emulation can be answered. I have a Rat, a clone I built that has the all of correct parts and stuff in it. But, I don't even know how close it is to an actual version of the real thing. I've never had an original in my hands to compare to. It sounds like I think it should based on recordings. But it also sounds completely different depending on what guitar I have plugged in to it and what amp is on the other side.
I'll bet that the Nembrini AU has enough of the character of the Rat that when you put it in the mix in a song it sounds right. But, it might very well not sound right to me when I play it. I'm a big believer in the idea that a musician needs to hear what they expect to hear while they are playing. I think it enables playing the effect instead of just having the effect change the sound. From that view, I prefer the hardware version of things. I bet there are others who feel exactly the opposite.
Still, for keyboards, you've got to try an analog Mu-Tron III. Awesome!
@ocelot an ideal amplifier would add an adjustable voltage (derived from power supply) to a signal and deliver an output increase proportional to that addition without distortion.
In real world that‘s not possible and only a part of the amp’s performance curve is linear, the range of clean amplification. This performance curve is highly depending on supply power.
But guitar players (and their audience) happened to like the non-linear part of the curve much more. A simple way to get into that range was to make the powersupply (almost) break down by cranking the amp and hit the strings hard.
That‘s the effect called sag, much appreciated for it‘s reaction to the playing dynamics.
You make it permanant by simply using a powersupply that has an adjustable output voltage to arbitrarily „tune“ the amp’s non-linearity.
The same happens with an almost worn out battery in an fx pedal - it can‘t deliver enough power, so the circuit runs beyond it‘s specs.
Diode clippers aren‘t necessarily worse than tube performance/distortion.
There are expensive studio compressors using this design and the main distortion of the most famous bass amplifier (Ampeg SVT) isn‘t it‘s tube output stage, but a pair of diodes in it‘s input path, spiced by a coil based midrange filter.
There are 2 types of power soaks: inductors (the ones you mentioned) and simple resistors.
Only inductors with a magnetic corre perform similiar to speakers and the main aspect isn‘t just energy consumption but to feed back current into the output stage. The moving coil acts like a dynamo... which addionally saturates the output transformer, resulting in a specific kind of distortion.
A similiar effect happens in an input transformer of a preamp in a more subtle, but much appreciated way, just driven by the input signal. A Shure SM58 may deliver 1V output if addressed hard enough.
counting peas: the „I“ in Ohm‘s Law isn‘t impedance, but current.
Oh so that's what it's called.
I call that bite.
Though I play guitar I didn't really get into amps and stuff.
As long as I get a tone close to what
I need for the venue and the moment it's all cool.
Having amp sims and effects processors minimise
the hassle but I looking to head back out and
I'm shaping my tone so all of this is coming in handy.
Thank you.
Like I said, need to call in a physicist.
It's been awhile.
A funny thing I had to learn:
transformers in studio gear are extremely expensive - so I assumed the same applies to vintage guitar amps. Classy transformers... completely wrong, most are simply crap and that‘s what delivers their great sound
Thanks @NeonSilicon Mr. Stone used to participate over on the MuffWiggler forum in the early days. Nice guy. For some reason he stopped and pulled all his schematics.
No idea how EVH connected his Variac. He apparently modified everything he touched.
Ah, I remember the Gemini, looked at them about 10 or 15 years ago. Never played one, but liked the idea of a 15". Looks to be around $500 these days? iirc, price hasn't changed much since then. I used to use a closed-back Ampeg bass cab with a silverface Bassman 50 - tight, yet pronounced low-end. Too loud, so I started experimenting with ultra-low wattage all-tube amps.
@Telefunky Thanks for the info, I'll have to read it several more times to understand.
Nice that nowadays there are amps with switchable wattage.
That 'sag and bloom' when driving power tubes hard. That sound is not that dissimilar to how a good studio tube compressor sounds on a loud input.
Transformers: Tube guitar amps and audiophile $$$ ADC/DACs usually have big expensive transformers. Confused.
I hear you.
I learnt similarly also.
Sometimes it's the least assuming thing that delivers the great sound.
Like those curly guitar cables guitarists used in the 70s. Did something 'wrong' to the impedance(?), which is what some big amps needed.