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Do you prefer adding/tweaking delay during sound design or mixing?
I’m directing this question to those who tend to finish projects 😉__
I’m curious if you write and arrange dry in terms of delay, or insert/explore with delay later while mixing? Or both depending on how project is going or starts out?
(I forgot to put both option, but votes are already in so I’m not going to delete the poll for an edit.)
[Edit edit]
Now my poll disappeared. I tried. Sorry. Let’s just discuss.
Comments
I'm with Tony Visconti. If you find the sound and it has delay, print it to tape with the delay. (There's a great clip of Visconti discussing how 'Heroes' was recorded in Berlin, and the chorus on the bass was there from the beginning.)
Ask a million music producers this question, get a million different answers.
I personally usually mix with reverb/delay/chorus effects on into a limiter slammed hard. Some producers hate mixing into a limiter but will mix with the reverb/delay/chorus effects on. Some producers just mix everything dry into a limiter, and some mix dry without a limiter. Then there are many varieties of workflows inbetween as well as other varieties of workflows. Even then, perhaps one producer uses multiple types of workflows, depending on the needs of the project. Every producer does it differently, which only serves to confuse people who are just beginning and learning.
So all I can offer is the reason I mix with the effects on into a limiter slammed hard. The reason I usually mix with the reverbs, delays, choruses, etc on into a limiter slammed hard is to approximate what the final result might be. I want it to be squashed all to hell on purpose so that the unmastered mix isn't a turd going into the mastering stage. The old addage is "ya can't polish a turd". BUT, this is just my subjective reasoning regarding my personal workflow. One size definitely does not fit all.
(Of course when I master my EDM tracks, I don't slam the limiter hard since I don't want to take a good unmastered mix and turn it into super squashed shite.)
I’ve tried both ways and strongly prefer adding delay during the sound design phase. I love that most synths have a delay included.
I treat most effects this way actually. I typically only put reverb, drive, crush, etc. on synths that include it. When I get to mixing, I might put on some of the other effects like chorus, phaser, and tape emulation. But the majority of the effects I use come directly from the instrument itself.
It’s helpful as I compose in Cubasis 3 but mix in AUM. So by the time I get to AUM, I’m doing very little modifying of the sounds themselves and focusing more on the dynamics.
My preferred mode of operation is to (carefully) choose delay/reverb according to track idea.
It makes a huge difference and what may turn a dry vocal into an outstanding sound, may be a total failure on a guitar.Or vice versa...
(that‘s why I hate synths with internal fx)
I usually have some idea about the „song“ ambience right from start, but that may change (or get tuned) with context of the final mix.
I think delay during sound design, because it plays a huge part in determining the pulse and phasing and how everything interacts. Since you’d probably know the bmp of your project in the beginning, carefully picking delays per track is a useful activity. I’ve printed delays on guitar or vocal tracks right away, because it’s a big part of the inspiration for the rest of the track and helps determine the limitations and freedoms of what you can do. But it really depends on your style and workflow. Some people love everything recorded dry, and then they design effects during mixing. Others need the effects and the sound of the room in the very beginning because it’s the inspiration for the whole project.
I like getting everything—guitar/synth/effects/amps/(eq too if I’m having a good day and on a roll—or more likely, doing a final take of a demo) as close to “right” (in my head) as I can so I don’t have to worry about it later. In the earlygoing of starting out on my own, this really helped me by both developing my depth of vision for a track and for providing a point of no return that I had to stick with in order to keep moving forward (Am I really gonna delete that great one-take because the wet level was at 36 instead of 40??). Otherwise I’d just noodle all day.
Building with small but concrete baby steps like the above is how I conquered my inability to get a finished dealie on my own.(anybody remember What About Bob?)
It doesn’t really matter. If you decide before mixing that it’s right, then do it then. If you decide you want to tweak it during mixing, do it then.
Thanks for all your insights thus far.
My methodology has been established for some time and it’s fluid. I don’t feel it’s superior to anybody else’s nor do I doubt my method. I just enjoy hearing people think critically about their process, and more importantly, I may stumble across somebody’s insight that I may have never considered before. That’s not to say I haven’t yet.
yes
To spin things another way, as a remix artist, I always ask for the stems to be provided both dry and effected (if possible). The dry stems have far greater creative potential but sometimes an effected part is the point of departure that inspires the remix. Imagine doing a Smiths remix where all you got was Johnny Marr's dry guitar parts!
I add them when creating. I use Elektron boxes, so I often lock extra delay or reverb to one sequencer step. Or I use ping-pong delay on the hats/percussion to get a scattered rhythmic effect.
And of course, spring reverb on the guitar AT ALL TIMES.
If I start a song in Ableton, I’ll use a send reverb so the individual tracks don’t all sound different.
For me the delay is part of the sound design phase. I might tweak it a little bit after, but definitly part of the creative stage.
Mixing.
Good point re Johnny Matt’s guitars.
a cool thing about echoes is that you can play at (or around) the edge (oops... ) of the beat
Totally 😃
Honestly I just try things and if it sounds good I move on and if it doesn’t sound good I don’t do that thing or perhaps I will do a different thing. Sometimes I might do something to one thing, but I’ll be listening to how it affects another thing, but at the end of the day, whether it’s wet or dry, I’m going all in.
I do it while making my sounds these days, I rarely have any sort of seperate mixing phase anymore. I'll do a few final tweaks at the end, but usually after working ona. track for many hours I've just adjusted things as I go in terms of volume and effects.
I'm also hugely in the camp of printing effects as I go if I like the way they sound.
To leave the most options while mixing, I’ve always been taught to print the dry tracks, and if you love the effects, print those too on a separate track. If you use templates with buses setup for your effects, this workflow shouldn’t stifle your creativity or slow you down. Obviously though, there is no right or wrong, just what sounds right to your ears.
It depends. If you’re The Edge, your delays and effects end up being a major part of the composition process. They are an instrument that you play and get inspiration from, in a virtuous feedback loop.
But as @bpert states, you can use return busses to have both dry signal and the effect on a return buss and this can be printed. The player still has the ability to use effects processing to inspire their playing style but the engineer/producer has greater flexibility when mixing/remixing.
However, I'm also in favour of printing dry signal and effects to a single track. Restricting your options can be a very good way of forcing creativity. Plus, if your hardware has limited processing power you don't have the option of keeping all your post-processing live.
Most experienced producers agree that inexperienced artists have far too many options open to them these days, and this can be musically crippling. A really good mental exercise is to create a track where you only use level and pan as part of the creation process. This can force you to think carefully about the musicality of your parts. It's far too easy to get into the habit of believing a certain processor chain will transform a weak musical part into something special. The phrase 'polishing a turd' comes to mind!
But the flip side of that argument is that certain musical styles such as dub, are an exercise in creative processing. Back in the nineties, I used to record a lot a London studio owned by Mark Lusardi (brother of the 'famed' page 3 model, Linda Lusardi). A lot of dub artists also recorded at the same studio. And I was lucky enough to sit in on a lot of those recording sessions and got to see the physical dance of good dub producers as they used the mixing desk and hardware processors as virtual instruments. Really inspiring stuff.
There is no right or wrong way of doing things. The main 'rule' is to use practices that you find musically inspiring. And it also helps if you aim to change things up on a regular basis, that way you won't find yourself falling back on lazy practices.
I missed your response! Apologies and thanks for sharing your musical insights and especially for the Dub recording session stories. So awesome, especially because I love Dub so much, so it is exciting for me to hear about your opportunity to witness and experience how they worked. I thought the dance in the studio was a one-off that I had happened to see on an old YT video, with lots of smoke! I didn’t realize it was a common thing, but it doesn’t surprise me. Seems natural with those grooves Thanks again.
Writing/tracking for me, usually. Reverb, I tend to leave to the mixing stage though.