I'm Not Sure Why I Sometimes Have Problems Midi Mapping Stuff

Montreal_Music

I'm not sure what is the problem. I have a top notch iPad, my main midi controller is new. But recently, I had a couples of problem with midi maping stuff.

To make it short, I tried Zeon in AUM, Zeon standalone, Moog Model D in AUM, Moog Model D standalone, Synthmaster 2 in AUM and Synthmaster 2 in standalone.

90% of the knobs that I midi map via midi learn works as they should. But 10% of the time, I have random problems:

• A knob control 2 knobs on the soft synth (the second knobs that is moving on the soft synth should not move because he is not map). Sometimes, my physical knob will move 1 knob and 1 hour later, 2 knobs for no reasons.

• Yesterday, I tried to map a couple of knobs in Model D standalone, but 1 knobs did not works as it should. When I midi learned the knob, the number CC snap showed up so I knew that the knob worked, but when I turned it, there were no movement. I tried the same knob on my midi controller with an other synth and it works so the problem is not a broken knob on my midi controller.

• Sometimes the knobs only send 0 and 127 midi CC instead of 1-2-3-4 etc.

• In Syntmaster 2, a knob (on the soft synth, the pitch) was always returning to 0. So, let's say I move the knob on my midi controller at noon in the middle and let it there, the knob of the soft synth will move to the middle at noon, but will snap back to 0.

I tried many setup, many synths, many midi controller and I always have a little something annoying.

My only hypothesis is that my dungle is not good, but it's a really good one almost new.

Any ideas why I'm having this problem?

0tolerance4silence

MIDI can be mysterious in many ways. It would help if you’d share which controller are you using.

• a knob controlling 2 parameters in the app is most likely due to 2 competing options: 1) default midi mapping of the app; 2) through the host parameter mapping. Usually there is a way to choose which one is the more suitable for the situation. F.e if a synth allows you to midi map its parameters don’t map them in your host.
• Model D issue can have several explanations. F.e if you map waveform parameters on the synth which has 6 positions it may respond to values 0-5 or may require the whole range (0-127) for the full travel. You need to figure that out and set your controller accordingly. Or your controller may be sending relative midi which is not widely supported among the apps.

the rest of your issues imo point to that your controller sends relative midi, so you’ll have to find a way to accommodate that on the receiving end, or change this on your controller (if supported). Again, it would help to find solutions if you tell about your controller and its capabilities/adjustability.

wim

My thoughts are along the same lines. You could be having various combinations of issues at various times, which can make troubleshooting difficult if you assume everything is independent.

• Cable: it is possible to get noise or disconnect/reconnect over the cables themselves. Unlikely, but possible.
• Conflicts: as mentioned above, some synths have built-in mappings and it may be possible that you've mapped something to a cc that's being used already for something else.
• Conflicts: it's easy to mistakenly make an direct mapping in an app but then make an AUv3 parameter mapping in the host, and have the two conflict with each other.
• Encoders vs. Pots: Pots send simple values 0-127 depending on their position. Encoders usually send 127 when turned to the right and zero when turned to the left. The receiving app has to know this is happening and support this kind of behavior. If the app control is at 73 and an encoder sends a 127, the app increases the control to 74. If it receives a zero it decreases it to 72. Not all apps support encoders, and not all automatically realize when you do the mapping that this is what is happening.
• Pickup vs. Absolute: Some apps are able to use a "Pickup" or "Takeover" mode so that if your controller is at, say zero, and you move a control to 73 in the app, when you turn the controller knob, nothing will happen until it passes through the 73 position. This is a feature to avoid jumping around if the position of the app control and the controller knob get out of sync. You may be thinking the controller isn't doing anything when it is really just waiting to hit the pickup point.
• Power Saving: it's unlikely, but may be possible that devices are going dormant, then when waking up are sending wonky values.
• Duplicate routing: any time there is more than one controller source, it's easy to accidentally route more than one thing to the same control. The default in AUM when routing is to accept all MIDI channels from whatever is routed somewhere. A good habit to get into is to only accept MIDI from the known channel(s) you need from each source.
• Unexpected Modulations: lots of apps have modulation matrixes. It's possible to have something internal triggering a change in a controller that you also have mapped externally.
• Software bugs: definitely possible, though I would eliminate every other possibility before assuming this.

To be honest - it's more likely that there are conflicts or misunderstandings about what you've mapped than that there is anything inconsistent going on with the actual MIDI behavior. But of course that's not impossible either.

You won't get anywhere by lumping all the problems together and thinking there's one cause for them. You'll need to focus on one issue at a time, try to reproduce it, and then trace back to the cause.

Montreal_Music

I made tests with MidiSpy and all is working A++.

I can't use my CC 32 in Model D. Weird question, but is there a problem with the 32? My CC knobs 32 works on every synth. When I midi learn the knob, Model D knows that is CC 32. But when I move the knob, nothing happen. Weird.

Montreal_Music

BTW, thank you Kai, MidiSpy is really usefull and free, I really appreciate.

Montreal_Music

@wim said:
My thoughts are along the same lines. You could be having various combinations of issues at various times, which can make troubleshooting difficult if you assume everything is independent.

• Cable: it is possible to get noise or disconnect/reconnect over the cables themselves. Unlikely, but possible.
• Conflicts: as mentioned above, some synths have built-in mappings and it may be possible that you've mapped something to a cc that's being used already for something else.
• Conflicts: it's easy to mistakenly make an direct mapping in an app but then make an AUv3 parameter mapping in the host, and have the two conflict with each other.
• Encoders vs. Pots: Pots send simple values 0-127 depending on their position. Encoders usually send 127 when turned to the right and zero when turned to the left. The receiving app has to know this is happening and support this kind of behavior. If the app control is at 73 and an encoder sends a 127, the app increases the control to 74. If it receives a zero it decreases it to 72. Not all apps support encoders, and not all automatically realize when you do the mapping that this is what is happening.
• Pickup vs. Absolute: Some apps are able to use a "Pickup" or "Takeover" mode so that if your controller is at, say zero, and you move a control to 73 in the app, when you turn the controller knob, nothing will happen until it passes through the 73 position. This is a feature to avoid jumping around if the position of the app control and the controller knob get out of sync. You may be thinking the controller isn't doing anything when it is really just waiting to hit the pickup point.
• Power Saving: it's unlikely, but may be possible that devices are going dormant, then when waking up are sending wonky values.
• Duplicate routing: any time there is more than one controller source, it's easy to accidentally route more than one thing to the same control. The default in AUM when routing is to accept all MIDI channels from whatever is routed somewhere. A good habit to get into is to only accept MIDI from the known channel(s) you need from each source.
• Unexpected Modulations: lots of apps have modulation matrixes. It's possible to have something internal triggering a change in a controller that you also have mapped externally.
• Software bugs: definitely possible, though I would eliminate every other possibility before assuming this.

To be honest - it's more likely that there are conflicts or misunderstandings about what you've mapped than that there is anything inconsistent going on with the actual MIDI behavior. But of course that's not impossible either.

You won't get anywhere by lumping all the problems together and thinking there's one cause for them. You'll need to focus on one issue at a time, try to reproduce it, and then trace back to the cause.

Wow, that's a quality answer! Thank you. I wish my English was as good as yours!

I will focus on 1 problem at a time. I wrote 1 problem on a previous post.

wim

@Montreal_Music said:
Wow, that's a quality answer! Thank you. I wish my English was as good as yours!

I will focus on 1 problem at a time. I wrote 1 problem on a previous post.

J'aimerais que mon français soit aussi bon que le tien !

Montreal_Music

@wim said:

@Montreal_Music said:
Wow, that's a quality answer! Thank you. I wish my English was as good as yours!

I will focus on 1 problem at a time. I wrote 1 problem on a previous post.

J'aimerais que mon français soit aussi bon que le tien !

Haha, bien joué! Tu parles français?

Montreal_Music

So, in a nutshel:

My knobs CC 32 works in MidiSpy. I made all kind of tests and the physical knob works without problem. The knobs works with every synth.
In Model D, I open the app, reset all midi maping. I try to map my CC 32. The learn works and Model d show "32", but when I turn the knob, nothing happen. Same in AUM. All others knobs works.

I will start with this single problem.

Can someone try to map a knob CC 32 with Model D? I'm sure my question is weird, but, why not. Why Model D don't react to CC 32?

wim

@Montreal_Music said:
I made tests with MidiSpy and all is working A++.

I can't use my CC 32 in Model D. Weird question, but is there a problem with the 32? My CC knobs 32 works on every synth. When I midi learn the knob, Model D knows that is CC 32. But when I move the knob, nothing happen. Weird.

It's probably excluded because CC 32 can be used in conjunction with Bank Select CC 0 to select banks on targets that have more than 128 banks. Model D shouldn't let you map it if it isn't going to listen to it though. That's a bug IMO.

Ableton Live also excludes CC32. At least they don't list it as available.

Another range that should normally be excluded is 120 - 127. These are known as Channel Mode Messages, which rather than controlling sound parameters, affect the channel's operating mode.

Montreal_Music

@wim said:

@Montreal_Music said:
I made tests with MidiSpy and all is working A++.

I can't use my CC 32 in Model D. Weird question, but is there a problem with the 32? My CC knobs 32 works on every synth. When I midi learn the knob, Model D knows that is CC 32. But when I move the knob, nothing happen. Weird.

It's probably excluded because CC 32 can be used in conjunction with Bank Select CC 0 to select banks on targets that have more than 128 banks.

Ableton Live also excludes CC32.

Another range that should normally be excluded is 120 - 127. These are known as Channel Mode Messages, which rather than controlling sound parameters, affect the channel's operating mode.

This is the kind of answer I was hoping to read.

I learned new thing and I can now stop worrying about my gear not working.

As I said a least 10 times this year, I really like this forum.

Thank you wim!

wim

No problem! I learned something too. I didn't realize that about CC 32.

(Oh, and no I don't really speak any French other the two essentials I picked up in my travels: "Je voudrais une bière s'il vous plaît." and "Où sont les toilettes s'il-vous-plait?" ... in that order.)