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Helium transposing when used with Cubasis3?
I recently bought Helium during the BF sales and I’m really enjoying it but I’m having issues when used within Cubasis 3. For example, when I drag a note to C3 it will transpose down to somewhere in the C-1 range ( even though the note shows that it’s on C3). This doesn’t happen in AUM.
Hopefully I’ve explained this well enough. Any suggestions ?
Comments
Not sure if this is your problem, but there are three variations of standard note numbering. They vary by the octave number assigned to middle C (MIDI note 60). Middle C can be C3, C4, or C5. C3 is used by Yamaha and many other synths. C4 was used by Roland, and is used by AUM. C5 is very rare, but has the advantage that all MIDI notes are positive, right down to C0 (MIDI 0). I suspect that Cubasis 3 and Helium may disagree on the notation.
To be sure, check the MIDI notes being sent by the app using a MIDI monitor. Don't rely on the notation.
Edit: By the way, I have never seen an app that explicitly states its usage. Apparently, every dev knows the only correct way of doing this. Also, 3C is hex for decimal 60, so C3 is obviously the natural choice for middle C.
Thanks @uncledave
I’m still looking into it. I’d be very surprised if I’m the only one having this issue in Cubasis. Although, most people are probably using the built-in piano roll editor. I just wanted to mess around with some of the chord progressions within Helium.
Do you really mean C-1? Or do you mean C1?
As @uncledave explained, apps vary in the octave numbering they use. If it's really a difference of four octaves, that's really unlikely to be due to this difference. If it's one or two octave difference, then it's just a MIDI thing that you have to adapt to.
Forget octave naming for a second. Does the note really sound four octaves lower? I don't know if you know how to test with a midi monitor to see if there's that much of a change. Again as @uncledave mentioned, the only way to do a foolproof comparison is to check the MIDI note number.
[edit] - testing with Atom2 (I don't have Helium), there is a one octave difference. C3 in Atom2 plays the note that Cubasis 2 calls C2. As odd as it may sound, this is perfectly normal. Just a quirk of MIDI that has to be gotten used to.
It actually does sound that low…haha. I thought I was doing something wrong at first because the notes were so low that they were inaudible under the beat I had going.
And….now that I’m trying to recreate the problem, it won’t do it anymore. 🙄
When it was happening yesterday it would happen in every session that I tried it in. So, I dunno, iOS can be finicky sometimes. Thanks for the help anyway @uncledave and @wim
Edit: Jeez… never mind, it’s doing it again…
@wim here’s a video snippet of what is going on. Video is looking kind of grainy (?) but those notes in the upper register are in the C6-C7 range
@mtenk said:
Double-check the setup of the instrument.
@espiegel123 I tried several different instruments. Same problem.
Have you tried building a new project from scratch to make sure that something isn’t amiss in the setup? It is hard to believe that it would be off by many octaves without anyone else mentioning it.
Oh yeah, definitely. I’ve tried new projects multiple times. I got it to act normal once! Ha
@espiegel123 Another video from a new project…
The first note/chord I load will play normally but if I delete it and try again? It’s all downhill from there…
In the video you can see that I have to press the double arrow to change the octave so that the sound registers.
Clearly there’s a problem. Do you see that behavior in any other host? Maybe not many people are using it in CB3.
I’ve reported your issue to Paul on Messenger, with a link to this topic. I’m sure he will fix this. And as a bug fixer, he’s like Speedy Gonzales!!
@wim The only other host I’ve tried it in is AUM and it doesn’t seem to do it.
Thanks for reporting it @Janosax
That was my next step but I just wanted to make sure that it wasn’t me doing something stupid.
Can you try long pressing the PLAY button and ensuring the Transpose setting is not in effect here?
Also, there is a known 1 octave discrepency between what AUM calls C4 and what Cubasis calls C4. Technically C4 should be MIDI note 60, but in AUM this doesn't seem to be the case.
Actually, this is the case in AUM, but maybe not in Cubasis. And, as we already explained, there's no technically correct answer; C3, C4, and C5 are all possible names for MIDI note 60. I do wish developers would state their assumption, instead of assuming they're right and everyone else is wrong.
Also if your new to Helium it is possible that you tried changing a couple of options without fully understand how they work. If you long press the 'MENU' button, a toolbar will appear. Ensure that both advanced timing is enabled and song out is disabled, otherwise it will cause havoc with Cubasis. I still believe that you maybe have transpose enabled, so please try long pressing the PLAY button and checking it is set to 0.
Hi @4pockets_paul
I haven’t changed any default settings but I went back and double checked anyway. Advanced Timing is enabled, Song Out is disabled, and transpose is set to 0.
If you check out the second video I posted you can see that Helium will act properly upon initially dragging clips in but, if I delete those clips and drag them in again havoc ensues…
See here:
I have no issues when doing exactly same thing, with latest Helium/CB3 versions and latest iPadOS 14:
iPad Air 4 with iOS 15.1 here…
I will not update to 15 just to check
Anybody else can test?
So, I’m slowly narrowing some things down maybe?
When I have this issue, if I hold down “Play” in Helium it’s showing -64 Semitones (even though initially it shows 0 Semitones). I’m not doing anything besides dragging clips in though. It’s changing octaves all on its own. 🤔
Also, @Janosax, when you tested it on your device did you enable sync within Helium? I’m not sure if it makes a difference, I’m just troubleshooting.
Hi Paul,
There is no single standard or official spec for octave numbering. So, it isn't correct that "technically C4 shoud be MIDI Note 60". MIDI Note 60 (which is defined to be middle c in the MIDI spec) is called C3 by some manufacturers and programmers and C4 by others. Yamaha and Roland since the beginning of MIDI used different octave numbering. There are even outliers that use numbering that equates MIDI Note 0 with octave 0...which render MIDI 60 as C5.
All those octave numberings are correct...one just has to know which numbering system a particular app or piece of gear uses.
Hmmm. Just suggesting here: -64 is not a multiple of 12, so this is not octave transposition. It sounds like an interpretation of a MIDI CC, one which uses a middle value of 0, so the control can range from -64 to +63. Is it possible that you have such a control configured, and the control is set to send a CC value of zero? Or is such a feature built-in to Helium or CB3?
Interesting. So I just tried to manually bump down the transpose in Helium to -64 and it won’t even go that low! It will go as low as -48 but not beyond.
As far as controllers and such, I’ve got nothing plugged in…just straight iPad. The tests I’ve been doing are from fresh projects with no default settings changed in Helium or CB3.
And yet another test with my IPhone 8 Plus. Same issue!!!
There’s no way this problem is specific to me. Right?
I think if I recall noticed this issue importing midi files into Cubasis but haven’t done it in a while. I had to edit the entire midi and select all and dragged it to the correct notes all at once. Might be Cubasis standard or something.
I’m assuming that may be the case. I wish someone else could confirm that they have the same issues with Cubasis and Helium. @4pockets_paul have you had a chance to look into this any further?
When I record notes from Tonality in to Helium inside AUM they play back much lower. Anyone else had this please? Attached a compressed screen capture as the site didn’t like the file format. Thanks
EDIT. Just checked the play button as advised above. As soon as I record it changed to -64 semitones. Pretty cumbersome to have to change back after every take. Hopefully a bug that can be ironed out.
You have to report on Messenger via 4Pockets Facebook. No other way to reach Paul.
No issues here iPadOS 14.8.1 iPad Pro M1 doing the same thing
I don’t have a Facebook to report this unfortunately.
Copying in Paul here in case he sees it here.
@4pockets_paul
I’m on M1 iPad Pro iOS 15.2. AUM using Tonality recording in to Helium. Notes automatically change the transpose to minus 64 once recorded. Clip linked two posts up.