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Why we need subwoofers

Ok nerds, I need your help again! I’m writing an article about subwoofers.

The news hook is an new Sonos mini subwoofer.

https://www.engadget.com/sonos-sub-mini-screenshot-202942576.html

My questions are

  • Why do we need subwoofers? Why not just bigger speakers?
  • Are there any advantages to 2.1 setups (smaller speakers with a sub) over two bigger speakers?
  • Is a mini sub like this Sonos one worth bothering with?

Any answers to any of thes questions would be super helpful. I’m looking for quotes for my article (on Lifewire.com), so I will assume you’re cool for me to quote you unless you say otherwise.

Comments

  • FWIW, I already know a decent amount about this. What I’m after is some insight from you folks!

  • Why do we need subwoofers?

    It's simple - "I like it when it goes boom."

  • edited December 2021

    I like bass but going too big with studio reference and anything with speakers in the studio or even practice space can get too noisy too quick. The reason you see the same sizes of speakers over n over is you wanna preserve your ears. From what Ive learned about ordinary speakers, the type most earthlings can afford, the frequency range they output and the volume at which they can do this best is down to a rather similar set of dimensions regardless of brand. Clean sound , predictability, stability and longevity is what you end up paying for. Subs should only be used for sub range and small subs less than ten are not so good. So around 6” reference for an average house room. Smaller reference would be very close and smaller rooms and still a 10” sub is nice. A decent size sub is no more than a single 12 for most studios. The reason is no one is rocking these super giant systems, the vast majority have less, so if you have way more than what everyone else is listening on then your not making your music to sound like it will for them. i have a medium room with 6”ref and a 10”sub I have a second surround sound system with dolby 5 point and a 12” sub but its not for studios. I a/b to see what my shits sounding like outside of here. Anything more is far too loud. You honestly dont wanna mess with more than 8s and a 12 in almost any place and if you do , you are better to spend that on sound proofing and a second more average system so you sound 🤯 on everything.

  • I had many years Genelecs and a Genelec Subwoofer, just because I needed accurate representation of the lower frequencies.
    It is very difficult to get a coherent soundstage when a subwoofer is involved because:

    • the room needs to be tailored to the Soundsystem
    • the filter frequencies play an important role in separating the monitors from the sub nowadays often helped by dsp

    So overall it is just easier and less expensive when you get a pair of Yamahas HS8
    But when your room has the size of a small cinema I would consider a sub again.

  • @mistercharlie said:
    My questions are

    • Why do we need subwoofers? Why not just bigger speakers?

    Subwoofers have crossovers that limit their speaker to the lowest frequencies, and since their sole function is to reproduce this small frequency range, they tend to do so more accurately with deeper sub-bass extension versus bigger speakers.

    • Are there any advantages to 2.1 setups (smaller speakers with a sub) over two bigger speakers?

    It depends. Size, power, frequency extension, price and quality, etc.

    • Is a mini sub like this Sonos one worth bothering with?

    I don't know that one. Doesn't look like it's out yet? I do remember the tiny Bose system blew my and many other's mind with the amount of sub-bass it could reproduce. It was revolutionary back in the 1990s.

    Sub-bass was life a way of life back in the day. Check out DJ Magic Mike, Techmaster PEB, DXJ, Mantronix, etc.

  • edited December 2021

    I would love an ik multimedia SUB that fits specially with iLoud micro/mtm
    Also in a small size…for small places🖤

  • Straight up?

    The first time I mixed with nearfields paired with a subwoofer it blew my socks off.
    It was the closest to how the tracks would sound on a P.A without a P.A.
    That was a Mackie HR824
    paired with a HRS120.

    Once nearfields or speakers are paired
    with a nice sounding subwoofer then
    it makes listening to and working on music
    much more pleasurable.

    In regards to getting larger speakers
    instead of smaller speakers and a subwoofer combo?

    It’s dependant upon so many factors.
    For instance the size of the room and
    the design of the speakers.

    Choosing speakers can
    sometimes be really personal.

  • wubba dub dub, 30hz in a sub

  • I would like to say an advantage to a smaller system with a built in sub would be for super small rooms , but in that case ordinary reference monitors and a subpac or a good pair of headphones and a subpac would be ideal for small, od shaped rooms or where you have to be quiet….

  • Another use for a subwoofer -
    Metallica's "...And Justice For All" has a prominent kick drum (~80hz), but the bass guitar was poorly mixed and is too quiet. With a subwoofer, that album comes to life.

  • My radio has a subwoofer. It sounds fantastic, whereas other similar radios, even bigger ones with bigger speakers without a subwoofer sound really dire in comparison.

  • edited December 2021

    @dreamrobe said:
    I had many years Genelecs and a Genelec Subwoofer, just because I needed accurate representation of the lower frequencies.
    It is very difficult to get a coherent soundstage when a subwoofer is involved because:

    • the room needs to be tailored to the Soundsystem
    • the filter frequencies play an important role in separating the monitors from the sub nowadays often helped by dsp

    So overall it is just easier and less expensive when you get a pair of Yamahas HS8
    But when your room has the size of a small cinema I would consider a sub again.

    +100.
    The better your main monitors are, the more this issue will become obvious.
    Or you keep the sub level and xover freq. low enough.
    It can be quite a joyful experience listening to a great and tuned sound system but for mixing, I prefer not to use a sub - except maybe for double-checking a bass heavy track to stay within reasonable limits.

  • The reason you need a subwoofer is simply because the vast majority of speakers and monitors can't accurately reproduce bass in the 20hz-80hz region.

    Some speakers will use ports or vents to extend their low-end response, but this comes at the cost of poorer transient response and time-smearing. Sealed enclosures won't have these problems, but they won't have the low-end extension of ported designs unless they also have very large diaphragms on the woofers.

    Basically there are a number of compromises involved in speaker design, which a subwoofer can help to attenuate. If you have a pair of great monitors that only extend to 100hz then a subwoofer can take care of the sub-bass - in many cases this is going to be a far more affordable and sensible approach compared to buying full-frequency range speakers (which will be extremely expensive).

    Subwoofers have to be very carefully positioned though, and the crossover frequency has to be fine-tuned so that they don't interfere with the main monitors.

  • Thanks folks! These answers are fantastic.

    @richardyot That was my understanding. By using a sub, you take the pressure off the monitors, and reproduce the bass with a speaker built specifically and only for that.

    Follow-on question: how about subs for music/movies listening. Same rules? Or are we then just trying to get as much low end as possible?

  • We need subwoofers to annoy parents and neighbours... :smiley:

  • @Simon said:
    We need subwoofers to annoy parents and neighbours... :smiley:

    Nah.

    Drumkits.

  • edited December 2021

    @mistercharlie said:
    Follow-on question: how about subs for music/movies listening. Same rules? Or are we then just trying to get as much low end as possible?

    Same rules IMO - movies already have a ton of sub-bass, no need to over-egg it. If you go to watch a movie at the cinema the bass goes very deep, and can get very loud, but it doesn't overpower the rest of the frequency range.

    You want explosions etc to have some impact, which means the sub-bass should be there when you need it, but you don't want the movie to be drowned in a constant rumble of bass.

    Same goes for music - you want to enjoy the music as it was intended.

  • @Gravitas said:

    @Simon said:
    We need subwoofers to annoy parents and neighbours... :smiley:

    Nah.

    Drumkits.

    Drumkits work. Also leaving Sector running while you leave the house does it too.

  • IMHO. In My Harsh Opinion.
    Subs are very useful. For discovering all the low frequency trash. Then yours mix is clean. Cheers.

  • More or less what I was going to say. A lot of issues in audio are down low where you can barely hear them, and it can lead to everything from distortion to not getting the final loudness you're after. If you can't hear it harder to know it's there so you can do something about it.

  • @AlmostAnonymous said:

    Also leaving Sector running while you leave the house does it too.

    Yoko Ono into BeatCutter.

  • Short version: low frequencies are not very directional. Having them handled by a speci> @richardyot said:

    The reason you need a subwoofer is simply because the vast majority of speakers and monitors can't accurately reproduce bass in the 20hz-80hz region.

    Some speakers will use ports or vents to extend their low-end response, but this comes at the cost of poorer transient response and time-smearing. Sealed enclosures won't have these problems, but they won't have the low-end extension of ported designs unless they also have very large diaphragms on the woofers.

    Basically there are a number of compromises involved in speaker design, which a subwoofer can help to attenuate. If you have a pair of great monitors that only extend to 100hz then a subwoofer can take care of the sub-bass - in many cases this is going to be a far more affordable and sensible approach compared to buying full-frequency range speakers (which will be extremely expensive).

    Subwoofers have to be very carefully positioned though, and the crossover frequency has to be fine-tuned so that they don't interfere with the main monitors.

    Another reason for specialized subwoofers is that low frequencies are not very directional it. Given the expense of manufacturing and designing a speaker whose spectrum includes the ultra low frequencies, it is cost effective to only have one of them. No need for every speaker in the system to be sub-capable when one is sufficient....particularly when you have more than two full-range speakers.

  • McDMcD
    edited December 2021

    I also like to spend more money on some awesome bookshelf speakers and a decent amplifier (tubes would be nice) and then add a "powered" sub with it's own crossover (low pass filter network) to give the extreme low end some presence.

    Financially, this should be the optimal solution because NOT having that sub means you really need to spend big bucks on speakers to handle it all. It also
    means the amplifier doesn't have to push 100's of watts to drive the extreme low end frequencies and it can be design to be flat for all frequencies above the 80 hertz cut off value where the sub takes over and has it's own less
    rigorously designed amp circuit to move a large speaker down into the floor.

    Making the jump to a 5.1 system starting from this approach would be an amp and 2 extra small speakers for the rear channels.

    Throw in Dolby Atmos into this plan and you also need to focus on the amp upgrade.

    I also suspect have the low frequencies removed from the mid-high enclosures insures a better speaker design and less interference and phase issues... a big speaker driver that must move forward and back in sync with the low end means the mid's being driven by the same driver is phasing in and out of time with that low end data. Not a great way to insure a pristine mid rage where the most essential data resides.

  • So my coffee table can rattle when I throw BLEASS Saturator and TB Barricade on my sub bass.

  • That's not a Subwoofer… THAT's a Subwoofer…

  • I thought Subwoofers are ment for this kinda scenes...

  • I’ve had a 2.1 passive speaker system kicking around for the past few decades and went through phases of using them with various amps (eg Tripath), and usually swapping them with other speaker systems instead because they sounded a bit distant and muffled. For example, the last couple of years I didn’t use the satellites but used Control Ones instead, wired through the passive sub. The passive sub has the crossover and takes the amplifier (Arcam 7R) feed left and right and passes on the satellite signal left and right. I could never get a satisfying sound from the system no matter which bits of it I used.

    A couple of months ago I bought a new Nobsound Class D amp which was specifically designed to be a 2.1 amp (came as a ‘kit’ but that only involved 5 mins of screwing spacers together and pushing the knobs on the pots and that’s it). This means that I can drive the passive sub entirely independently from the satellites. The outcome of this is that those speakers I had originally thought to be distant and muffled have truly come alive and are surprisingly sharp and full. The bass is way way way too powerful though, so I have to have the bass channel turned quite a lot down or the neighbours will feel the benefit. I’m turning it down to what I consider a more lifelike and accurate level in the same way a person will (or will not) adjust the colour and contrast on the telly to be more lifelike and accurate rather than super saturated contrast up to the max.

  • edited December 2021

    @ocelot said:

    Why do we need subwoofers?

    It's simple - "I like it when it goes boom."

    This Is true 😂, I've got a 10" sub paired up with some 5" monitors, I haven't got the space on my desk for bigger monitoring but theres plenty of room for as sub in the cave, plus if you make bass heavy genres like Dnb and hip hop the sub for me at least helps me understand more accurately where my bass is at rather than just relying on 5" monitors that have a quite restricted bass response..

    it did take a little while to get it all dialled in because to be fair my workspace isn't acoustically perfect buy it close enough for a bedroom pad basher like me..

  • @GeoTony said:
    That's not a Subwoofer… THAT's a Subwoofer…

    I actual want that 😅

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