Ambient and Post-Rock guitar effects chains

richardyot

@ExAsperis99 said:
@richardyot
All of this is really inspiring, and your use of fx is so subtle! And the economy of playing, too. Really great, and I could listen to this all day.

Oh and thanks BTW I'm not really playing with any intent in these videos, just leaving enough space to demo the FX.

JeffChasteen

@richardyot said:

@ExAsperis99 said:
I remember talking to a producer about bands wanting to sound like My Bloody Valentine. The 90s was kind of the birth of the giant pedalboard and chorus and delay on everything.

And the irony of this is that MBV never used chorus, or even delay to my knowledge. They didn't even use regular reverb (just the reverse kind). Kevin Shields has said he doesn't like wet sounds, he likes guitars to be dry and upfront. On Loveless there is hardly any compression, and no reverb on the vocals.

All this to say really is that what made MBV unique was that Kevin Shields just did his own thing, constantly finding new and unique ways to mangle his sound. They didn't follow any of the expected procedures of the time (hardly any panning of instruments, no compression, no reverb etc), they just forged their own unique sound. So much so that they had to constantly fight against engineers who wanted to do things the conventional way and couldn't accept that what MBV wanted was even possible or viable.

Other bands have also had this experience, the Jesus and Mary Chain and the Sisters of Mercy were also constantly fighting against engineers and producers trying to "improve" their sound

So while I find it really interesting dissecting these sounds on the records I love, it's not so much about emulating the exact sound, but more about the open-mindedness and creativity that went into creating them.

If I recall correctly, Shields said his most valuable tool in the studio was EQ.

richardyot

This thread has got me thinking about innovation and experimentalism in music. I think in rock music there are several strands of avant-guardism that take completely different approaches.

One approach is to use conventional rock, blues, or jazz sounds and create complex harmonies or rhythms. Think Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart: just standard rock or blues tones but with jazz harmonies, polyrhythms, or even completely atonal music. This kind of approach usually (but not always) comes from technically advanced musicians like Zappa (although admittedly Captain Beefheart was not a great technical musician, but his band all were).

I think quite a bit of Bowie's work also has this feel, like the Mike Garson piano solo on Alladin Sane, or Robert Fripp's guitar work on the Heroes album: conventional rock and blues sounds but improvised to give a more atonal and arrhythmic feel.

To me this kind of avant-guardism is real muso stuff: the technical excellence of the players might give the experimental edge some kind of credibility (ie it's not done by amateurs) but generally it's hard to enjoy the tunes, precisely because they're atonal and/or polyrhythmic.

A different approach comes from the more extreme experimental musicians, who discard all musical norms (both in terms of sound and harmony + rhythm), and create textural soundscapes, often disturbing to listen to. Think Einsturzede Neubaten, or Locust Abortion Technican era Butthole Surfers.

And then there is another approach, with a rich history, which is to create new sounds alongside more conventional musical structures, often being catchy pop songs with jarring sound design.

The Velvet Underground are a prime example: catchy songs with really simple chord structures but they sound strange because of the instrumentation (the viola, the droning guitars, Moe's drumming).

The Jesus and Mary Chain wrote some of the catchiest melodies of the 80s, buried in feedback. MBV tracks are full of hooks, made unique with the mangled guitar sound. Sonic Youth use weird tunings and write pretty melodies drenched in noise.

Interestingly the people who go for this approach tend to be less expert technical musicians. Lou Reed, the Reid Brothers, Kevin Shields etc are all pretty basic guitar players, who use creativity rather than technical excellence to express their ideas. I think Jimi Hendrix is probably one of the few people I can think of who was both extremely creative and unconventional and also technically excellent. Actually J Mascis also fits that description, I'm sure there are others.

Anyway what draws me personally to these kinds of artists is the combination of innovative sounds with tunes you can actually enjoy. Under all the strangeness of the sounds there is a song you can just play on an acoustic guitar and it would sound good. A melody you can sing along to. So ironically the music itself is quite conventional (and usually very simple), it's just wrapped in sounds that don't conform to the strictures of the genre.

And the reason this works for me is that this approach mixes originality and strangeness with beauty. Strange sounds, but beautiful songs.

YMMV of course, not everyone necessarily agrees with my tastes

ExAsperis99

Agree with this sentiment 100 percent. There is no "right" sound! The Hüsker Dü cover of "8 Miles High" sounds like garbage, probably, to the ear of a professional engineer, but it's absolutely one of the most exciting records I have ever heard. The entire early catalog of Guided By Voices are totally wrong but would lose all their impact if "corrected."

And as for MBV, I didn't actually say that the used chorus, but I certainly assumed they would have. And I think you're right. Though Kevin Shields has quite a few delay pedals on his many boards.

richardyot

@ExAsperis99 said:
And as for MBV, I didn't actually say that the used chorus, but I certainly assumed they would have. And I think you're right. Though Kevin Shields has quite a few delay pedals on his many boards.

Thanks that’s super interesting. Lots of delays (thanks for the correction), can’t spot any chorus or flanger pedals, lots of fuzz boxes, wahs, octaves and filters though.

ghost_forests

@richardyot said:
This thread has got me thinking about innovation and experimentalism in music. I think in rock music there are several strands of avant-guardism that take completely different approaches.

One approach is to use conventional rock, blues, or jazz sounds and create complex harmonies or rhythms. Think Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart: just standard rock or blues tones but with jazz harmonies, polyrhythms, or even completely atonal music. This kind of approach usually (but not always) comes from technically advanced musicians like Zappa (although admittedly Captain Beefheart was not a great technical musician, but his band all were).

I think quite a bit of Bowie's work also has this feel, like the Mike Garson piano solo on Alladin Sane, or Robert Fripp's guitar work on the Heroes album: conventional rock and blues sounds but improvised to give a more atonal and arrhythmic feel.

To me this kind of avant-guardism is real muso stuff: the technical excellence of the players might give the experimental edge some kind of credibility (ie it's not done by amateurs) but generally it's hard to enjoy the tunes, precisely because they're atonal and/or polyrhythmic.

A different approach comes from the more extreme experimental musicians, who discard all musical norms (both in terms of sound and harmony + rhythm), and create textural soundscapes, often disturbing to listen to. Think Einsturzede Neubaten, or Locust Abortion Technican era Butthole Surfers.

And then there is another approach, with a rich history, which is to create new sounds alongside more conventional musical structures, often being catchy pop songs with jarring sound design.

The Velvet Underground are a prime example: catchy songs with really simple chord structures but they sound strange because of the instrumentation (the viola, the droning guitars, Moe's drumming).

The Jesus and Mary Chain wrote some of the catchiest melodies of the 80s, buried in feedback. MBV tracks are full of hooks, made unique with the mangled guitar sound. Sonic Youth use weird tunings and write pretty melodies drenched in noise.

Interestingly the people who go for this approach tend to be less expert technical musicians. Lou Reed, the Reid Brothers, Kevin Shields etc are all pretty basic guitar players, who use creativity rather than technical excellence to express their ideas. I think Jimi Hendrix is probably one of the few people I can think of who was both extremely creative and unconventional and also technically excellent. Actually J Mascis also fits that description, I'm sure there are others.

Anyway what draws me personally to these kinds of artists is the combination of innovative sounds with tunes you can actually enjoy. Under all the strangeness of the sounds there is a song you can just play on an acoustic guitar and it would sound good. A melody you can sing along to. So ironically the music itself is quite conventional (and usually very simple), it's just wrapped in sounds that don't conform to the strictures of the genre.

And the reason this works for me is that this approach mixes originality and strangeness with beauty. Strange sounds, but beautiful songs.

YMMV of course, not everyone necessarily agrees with my tastes

Hear hear to all of this

lukesleepwalker

@richardyot said:
So while I find it really interesting dissecting these sounds on the records I love, it's not so much about emulating the exact sound, but more about the open-mindedness and creativity that went into creating them.

Hammer hits nail!

HotStrange

Cool stuff! The iPad is the only thing keeping me from diving head first into both boutique pedals and modular. Those are 2 rabbit holes I don’t need in my life, as much as I want to haha. Luckily there is no shortage of amazing iOS effects. The FAC and Eventide stuff in particular sound as good as most pedals I’ve tried.

lukesleepwalker

@ghost_forests said:

@richardyot said:
This thread has got me thinking about innovation and experimentalism in music. I think in rock music there are several strands of avant-guardism that take completely different approaches.

One approach is to use conventional rock, blues, or jazz sounds and create complex harmonies or rhythms. Think Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart: just standard rock or blues tones but with jazz harmonies, polyrhythms, or even completely atonal music. This kind of approach usually (but not always) comes from technically advanced musicians like Zappa (although admittedly Captain Beefheart was not a great technical musician, but his band all were).

I think quite a bit of Bowie's work also has this feel, like the Mike Garson piano solo on Alladin Sane, or Robert Fripp's guitar work on the Heroes album: conventional rock and blues sounds but improvised to give a more atonal and arrhythmic feel.

To me this kind of avant-guardism is real muso stuff: the technical excellence of the players might give the experimental edge some kind of credibility (ie it's not done by amateurs) but generally it's hard to enjoy the tunes, precisely because they're atonal and/or polyrhythmic.

A different approach comes from the more extreme experimental musicians, who discard all musical norms (both in terms of sound and harmony + rhythm), and create textural soundscapes, often disturbing to listen to. Think Einsturzede Neubaten, or Locust Abortion Technican era Butthole Surfers.

And then there is another approach, with a rich history, which is to create new sounds alongside more conventional musical structures, often being catchy pop songs with jarring sound design.

The Velvet Underground are a prime example: catchy songs with really simple chord structures but they sound strange because of the instrumentation (the viola, the droning guitars, Moe's drumming).

The Jesus and Mary Chain wrote some of the catchiest melodies of the 80s, buried in feedback. MBV tracks are full of hooks, made unique with the mangled guitar sound. Sonic Youth use weird tunings and write pretty melodies drenched in noise.

Interestingly the people who go for this approach tend to be less expert technical musicians. Lou Reed, the Reid Brothers, Kevin Shields etc are all pretty basic guitar players, who use creativity rather than technical excellence to express their ideas. I think Jimi Hendrix is probably one of the few people I can think of who was both extremely creative and unconventional and also technically excellent. Actually J Mascis also fits that description, I'm sure there are others.

Anyway what draws me personally to these kinds of artists is the combination of innovative sounds with tunes you can actually enjoy. Under all the strangeness of the sounds there is a song you can just play on an acoustic guitar and it would sound good. A melody you can sing along to. So ironically the music itself is quite conventional (and usually very simple), it's just wrapped in sounds that don't conform to the strictures of the genre.

And the reason this works for me is that this approach mixes originality and strangeness with beauty. Strange sounds, but beautiful songs.

YMMV of course, not everyone necessarily agrees with my tastes

Hear hear to all of this

Yeah, seriously, perfectly articulated. All of it.

richardyot

@lukesleepwalker said:

@ghost_forests said:

@richardyot said:
This thread has got me thinking about innovation and experimentalism in music. I think in rock music there are several strands of avant-guardism that take completely different approaches.

One approach is to use conventional rock, blues, or jazz sounds and create complex harmonies or rhythms. Think Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart: just standard rock or blues tones but with jazz harmonies, polyrhythms, or even completely atonal music. This kind of approach usually (but not always) comes from technically advanced musicians like Zappa (although admittedly Captain Beefheart was not a great technical musician, but his band all were).

I think quite a bit of Bowie's work also has this feel, like the Mike Garson piano solo on Alladin Sane, or Robert Fripp's guitar work on the Heroes album: conventional rock and blues sounds but improvised to give a more atonal and arrhythmic feel.

To me this kind of avant-guardism is real muso stuff: the technical excellence of the players might give the experimental edge some kind of credibility (ie it's not done by amateurs) but generally it's hard to enjoy the tunes, precisely because they're atonal and/or polyrhythmic.

A different approach comes from the more extreme experimental musicians, who discard all musical norms (both in terms of sound and harmony + rhythm), and create textural soundscapes, often disturbing to listen to. Think Einsturzede Neubaten, or Locust Abortion Technican era Butthole Surfers.

And then there is another approach, with a rich history, which is to create new sounds alongside more conventional musical structures, often being catchy pop songs with jarring sound design.

The Velvet Underground are a prime example: catchy songs with really simple chord structures but they sound strange because of the instrumentation (the viola, the droning guitars, Moe's drumming).

The Jesus and Mary Chain wrote some of the catchiest melodies of the 80s, buried in feedback. MBV tracks are full of hooks, made unique with the mangled guitar sound. Sonic Youth use weird tunings and write pretty melodies drenched in noise.

Interestingly the people who go for this approach tend to be less expert technical musicians. Lou Reed, the Reid Brothers, Kevin Shields etc are all pretty basic guitar players, who use creativity rather than technical excellence to express their ideas. I think Jimi Hendrix is probably one of the few people I can think of who was both extremely creative and unconventional and also technically excellent. Actually J Mascis also fits that description, I'm sure there are others.

Anyway what draws me personally to these kinds of artists is the combination of innovative sounds with tunes you can actually enjoy. Under all the strangeness of the sounds there is a song you can just play on an acoustic guitar and it would sound good. A melody you can sing along to. So ironically the music itself is quite conventional (and usually very simple), it's just wrapped in sounds that don't conform to the strictures of the genre.

And the reason this works for me is that this approach mixes originality and strangeness with beauty. Strange sounds, but beautiful songs.

YMMV of course, not everyone necessarily agrees with my tastes

Hear hear to all of this

Yeah, seriously, perfectly articulated. All of it.

Glad to hear I'm not alone 😀

richardyot

@HotStrange said:
Cool stuff! The iPad is the only thing keeping me from diving head first into both boutique pedals and modular. Those are 2 rabbit holes I don’t need in my life, as much as I want to haha. Luckily there is no shortage of amazing iOS effects. The FAC and Eventide stuff in particular sound as good as most pedals I’ve tried.

Yes the iPad is also keeping me from spending silly money on pedals (although there are still some I'm tempted to get). In reality though the iPad is way more versatile than any pedal, partly because you are in total control of the signal flow in ways that aren't possible with pedals.

lukesleepwalker

If I had to guess, I'd say that the next innovators won't just use pedals to find new expression with a guitar. Sampling and MIDI have become too ubiquitous in the toolbox.

richardyot

@lukesleepwalker said:
If I had to guess, I'd say that the next innovators won't just use pedals to find new expression with a guitar. Sampling and MIDI have become too ubiquitous in the toolbox.

Yeah it's all wide open. Someone will come along and do something completely unexpected.

JeffChasteen

@richardyot said:

@JeffChasteen said:

@richardyot said:
Going slightly OT but pretty interesting nonetheless: How Venus In Furs was performed. I liked seeing how the tuning on the guitar really affects the sound and gives it that strange-sounding tonality:

Here’s a great related video:

Thanks, that was good - especially the trick of tuning two strings to the same note. Kevin Shields also did this to get that droning sound, but it was good to hear an actual example of it. I might try this out myself.

I'm thinking of making a kit guitar so that I have something I can try different tunings on.

It will give you an instant Run Run Run or European Son lead sound.
I have a Hyundai(!) Les Paul knockoff that I restrung and usually keep in Ostrich tuning. Best $6 I ever spent!

JeffChasteen

@richardyot said:
This thread has got me thinking about innovation and experimentalism in music. I think in rock music there are several strands of avant-guardism that take completely different approaches.

One approach is to use conventional rock, blues, or jazz sounds and create complex harmonies or rhythms. Think Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart: just standard rock or blues tones but with jazz harmonies, polyrhythms, or even completely atonal music. This kind of approach usually (but not always) comes from technically advanced musicians like Zappa (although admittedly Captain Beefheart was not a great technical musician, but his band all were).

I think quite a bit of Bowie's work also has this feel, like the Mike Garson piano solo on Alladin Sane, or Robert Fripp's guitar work on the Heroes album: conventional rock and blues sounds but improvised to give a more atonal and arrhythmic feel.

To me this kind of avant-guardism is real muso stuff: the technical excellence of the players might give the experimental edge some kind of credibility (ie it's not done by amateurs) but generally it's hard to enjoy the tunes, precisely because they're atonal and/or polyrhythmic.

A different approach comes from the more extreme experimental musicians, who discard all musical norms (both in terms of sound and harmony + rhythm), and create textural soundscapes, often disturbing to listen to. Think Einsturzede Neubaten, or Locust Abortion Technican era Butthole Surfers.

And then there is another approach, with a rich history, which is to create new sounds alongside more conventional musical structures, often being catchy pop songs with jarring sound design.

The Velvet Underground are a prime example: catchy songs with really simple chord structures but they sound strange because of the instrumentation (the viola, the droning guitars, Moe's drumming).

The Jesus and Mary Chain wrote some of the catchiest melodies of the 80s, buried in feedback. MBV tracks are full of hooks, made unique with the mangled guitar sound. Sonic Youth use weird tunings and write pretty melodies drenched in noise.

Interestingly the people who go for this approach tend to be less expert technical musicians. Lou Reed, the Reid Brothers, Kevin Shields etc are all pretty basic guitar players, who use creativity rather than technical excellence to express their ideas. I think Jimi Hendrix is probably one of the few people I can think of who was both extremely creative and unconventional and also technically excellent. Actually J Mascis also fits that description, I'm sure there are others.

Anyway what draws me personally to these kinds of artists is the combination of innovative sounds with tunes you can actually enjoy. Under all the strangeness of the sounds there is a song you can just play on an acoustic guitar and it would sound good. A melody you can sing along to. So ironically the music itself is quite conventional (and usually very simple), it's just wrapped in sounds that don't conform to the strictures of the genre.

And the reason this works for me is that this approach mixes originality and strangeness with beauty. Strange sounds, but beautiful songs.

YMMV of course, not everyone necessarily agrees with my tastes

Perfectly stated, richard.
You will get no argument from me.

richardyot

@JeffChasteen said:

@richardyot said:

@JeffChasteen said:

@richardyot said:
Going slightly OT but pretty interesting nonetheless: How Venus In Furs was performed. I liked seeing how the tuning on the guitar really affects the sound and gives it that strange-sounding tonality:

Here’s a great related video:

Thanks, that was good - especially the trick of tuning two strings to the same note. Kevin Shields also did this to get that droning sound, but it was good to hear an actual example of it. I might try this out myself.

I'm thinking of making a kit guitar so that I have something I can try different tunings on.

It will give you an instant Run Run Run or European Son lead sound.
I have a Hyundai(!) Les Paul knockoff that I restrung and usually keep in Ostrich tuning. Best $6 I ever spent!

Was the $6 spent on the strings, or the guitar? 😮

JeffChasteen

@richardyot said:

@JeffChasteen said:

@richardyot said:

@JeffChasteen said:

@richardyot said:
Going slightly OT but pretty interesting nonetheless: How Venus In Furs was performed. I liked seeing how the tuning on the guitar really affects the sound and gives it that strange-sounding tonality:

Here’s a great related video:

Thanks, that was good - especially the trick of tuning two strings to the same note. Kevin Shields also did this to get that droning sound, but it was good to hear an actual example of it. I might try this out myself.

I'm thinking of making a kit guitar so that I have something I can try different tunings on.

It will give you an instant Run Run Run or European Son lead sound.
I have a Hyundai(!) Les Paul knockoff that I restrung and usually keep in Ostrich tuning. Best $6 I ever spent!

Was the $6 spent on the strings, or the guitar? 😮

The guitar. I picked it up in a Salvation Army thrift store. I have so many partial packs of strings lying around.

richardyot

@JeffChasteen said:

@richardyot said:

@JeffChasteen said:

@richardyot said:

@JeffChasteen said:

@richardyot said:
Going slightly OT but pretty interesting nonetheless: How Venus In Furs was performed. I liked seeing how the tuning on the guitar really affects the sound and gives it that strange-sounding tonality:

Here’s a great related video:

Thanks, that was good - especially the trick of tuning two strings to the same note. Kevin Shields also did this to get that droning sound, but it was good to hear an actual example of it. I might try this out myself.

I'm thinking of making a kit guitar so that I have something I can try different tunings on.

It will give you an instant Run Run Run or European Son lead sound.
I have a Hyundai(!) Les Paul knockoff that I restrung and usually keep in Ostrich tuning. Best $6 I ever spent!

Was the $6 spent on the strings, or the guitar? 😮

The guitar. I picked it up in a Salvation Army thrift store. I have so many partial packs of strings lying around.

😂

richardyot

New video: creating modulated dual delays:

Starting with a nice stereo dual delay, I then add some modulations that range from subtle movement all the way to whale noises.

spiteface

These videos are so great for helping me think outside of the box and dust off some apps I’ve really never found a use for. And you’ve sold me on attack softener. Thanks again!

richardyot

@spiteface said:
These videos are so great for helping me think outside of the box and dust off some apps I’ve really never found a use for. And you’ve sold me on attack softener. Thanks again!

My pleasure!

Fingolfinzz

@richardyot said:

@ExAsperis99 said:
I remember talking to a producer about bands wanting to sound like My Bloody Valentine. The 90s was kind of the birth of the giant pedalboard and chorus and delay on everything.

And the irony of this is that MBV never used chorus, or even delay to my knowledge. They didn't even use regular reverb (just the reverse kind). Kevin Shields has said he doesn't like wet sounds, he likes guitars to be dry and upfront. On Loveless there is hardly any compression, and no reverb on the vocals.

All this to say really is that what made MBV unique was that Kevin Shields just did his own thing, constantly finding new and unique ways to mangle his sound. They didn't follow any of the expected procedures of the time (hardly any panning of instruments, no compression, no reverb etc), they just forged their own unique sound. So much so that they had to constantly fight against engineers who wanted to do things the conventional way and couldn't accept that what MBV wanted was even possible or viable.

Other bands have also had this experience, the Jesus and Mary Chain and the Sisters of Mercy were also constantly fighting against engineers and producers trying to "improve" their sound

So while I find it really interesting dissecting these sounds on the records I love, it's not so much about emulating the exact sound, but more about the open-mindedness and creativity that went into creating them.

Shit, that’s a trip they never used chorus, they shaped their sound much differently than I expected . That’s like when I learned that the Cure didn’t use chorus but just weird tunings and messing with the tape speed for that sound

richardyot

@Fingolfinzz said:

@richardyot said:

@ExAsperis99 said:
I remember talking to a producer about bands wanting to sound like My Bloody Valentine. The 90s was kind of the birth of the giant pedalboard and chorus and delay on everything.

And the irony of this is that MBV never used chorus, or even delay to my knowledge. They didn't even use regular reverb (just the reverse kind). Kevin Shields has said he doesn't like wet sounds, he likes guitars to be dry and upfront. On Loveless there is hardly any compression, and no reverb on the vocals.

All this to say really is that what made MBV unique was that Kevin Shields just did his own thing, constantly finding new and unique ways to mangle his sound. They didn't follow any of the expected procedures of the time (hardly any panning of instruments, no compression, no reverb etc), they just forged their own unique sound. So much so that they had to constantly fight against engineers who wanted to do things the conventional way and couldn't accept that what MBV wanted was even possible or viable.

Other bands have also had this experience, the Jesus and Mary Chain and the Sisters of Mercy were also constantly fighting against engineers and producers trying to "improve" their sound

So while I find it really interesting dissecting these sounds on the records I love, it's not so much about emulating the exact sound, but more about the open-mindedness and creativity that went into creating them.

Shit, that’s a trip they never used chorus, they shaped their sound much differently than I expected . That’s like when I learned that the Cure didn’t use chorus but just weird tunings and messing with the tape speed for that sound

I didn't know that!