Modal Theory - Do you incorporate modes in your compositions?and how?

celtic_elk

@michael_m said:
I agree that it’s correct in scale degrees, particularly when comparing to a major scale, but in absolutes it’s not clear to say flat 7th if you don’t know if it’s the major or minor that’s being flatted. If you know already that it’s mixolydian then no problem, but I think it’s more common to talk about an absolute 10 semitones as a minor 7th.

By convention, "flat 7th" is interchangeable with "minor 7th." That may seem confusing to you, but that’s the convention. No one ever uses "the flat 7th" to talk about, for example, the note A in a C Mixolydian context.

michael_m

@celtic_elk said:

@michael_m said:
I agree that it’s correct in scale degrees, particularly when comparing to a major scale, but in absolutes it’s not clear to say flat 7th if you don’t know if it’s the major or minor that’s being flatted. If you know already that it’s mixolydian then no problem, but I think it’s more common to talk about an absolute 10 semitones as a minor 7th.

By convention, "flat 7th" is interchangeable with "minor 7th." That may seem confusing to you, but that’s the convention. No one ever uses "the flat 7th" to talk about, for example, the note A in a C Mixolydian context.

I guess so, but hadn't really thought to do that as the 7th in say a ii7 or iii7 of the major scale isn't really flatted - it's just the minor 7th by virtue of being the 4th note in the scale for that particular root note, which happens to be a minor 7th. I suppose when you write the formula for the chords it's a flat 7th, but I don't know what I say it that way. Maybe it's more of a convention than I've noticed.

espiegel123

@michael_m said:

@espiegel123 said:

@michael_m said:

@hisdudeness said:
Sorry for confusion , I meant flat7 ie is 10 semi tones from root ascending

Hence Major sixth would 9 semitones from root ascending

If we are playing in Major, but want to switch to Mixolydian, it seems valid to say “play a b7.” But when we start talking chords in the same conversation “play a b7” now is ambiguous.

That precisely why I posted this question since there so many choices , you kinda get stuck in composing something meaningful , hence wanted to get some of the box ideas..given the diverse array of musicians in this forum

to clarify your ambiguity, what I meant was…
For example if chord is C for soloing you could use
CMaj, Cmix, Cydian ……and the b7 note , if you choose to use would Bb in all cases , (but logical choice of scale would be Cmix)

But…. if you choose a F based scale to solo over C because your composition demands it then b7 in (over C chord) this case if you desire would be Eb

It would be better to refer to 10 semitones from the tonic as a minor 7th rather than a flat 7th, as a flat seventh could be a flat minor 7th, which is 9 semitones from the tonic. (Sorry if this sounds pedantic).

sorry if this is pedantic, but in the context of talking about scale degrees. It is correct to call Bb in C Mix a flat 7, Most musicians I know of use the terms flat or sharp when talking about scale degrees to derive the modes. Essentially, it terminology that uses the diatonic major as the reference.

So, you might see mixolydian written as 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7. Dorian would be 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7. Natural minor 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 . In the context of thinking about the scale, they'll often say Dorian has a flatted third because you are comparing it to the base scale and comparing it to the normal third not thinking in terms of the interval to the root. Or say that natural minor's 6 is flatted. They sometimes will use major/minor, too.

I don’t think I have ever heard ‘flat seven’ refer to a diminished 7.

Yes, soloing over C with F mixolydian will work, as the Eb is the minor 3rd in C, and the other notes will work well.

I agree that it’s correct in scale degrees, particularly when comparing to a major scale, but in absolutes it’s not clear to say flat 7th if you don’t know if it’s the major or minor that’s being flatted. If you know already that it’s mixolydian then no problem, but I think it’s more common to talk about an absolute 10 semitones as a minor 7th.

Calling a scale or chord tone a flat 7 rather than a minor 7 is common and unambiguous. In 50+ years talking about music with teachers and peers, I don’t think I have ever heard anyone refer to a double-flatted 7th as a flat 7 and have heard minor 7 and flat 7 used fairly interchangeably by players .. strictly classical players are not likely to call things flat sevenths but they know what you mean if you say a flat 7.

rs2000

I'm a total harmony theory noob but it didn't hurt me too much because I'm constantly looking for workarounds
One of them is playing with ChordPolyPad in different ways: I'd place all notes of each scale on separate pads, have them strum upwards with the slowest speed and get inspired by the different harmonic moods.
For me that's a great start to write melodies that naturally fit without needing to think about any theory while keeping the "framework" in place.
I'm not sure if this would be for everyone but it works for me.

audiblevideo

@rs2000 not a bad idea

Fingolfinzz

@McD said:
Here's a simple tip to choose one of the 7 basic modes based on the white keys:

"I'm Dejected, Please Leave Me A-Lone."

Ionian (Major root chord) C note
Dorian (Minor root chord) D
Phyrygian (Minor root chord) E
Lydian (Major root chord) F
Mixolydian (Major root chord) G
Aeolian (minor root chord) H, oops, A
Locrian (diminished root chord * makes it harder to feel like you have arrived) B or I".

So, just use the white keys exclusively and decide which note to focus your attention on and you too can jam in modes. Run your finger up and down the white keys and stop at the root when it's the right time.

Now choosing chords to support these melodies is helpful and "Suggester" lets to set the chord choices by root and scale name. Then you can even jam chord rhythms or use the ChordShapes app. There are many of these type of chord apps. I'm just digging into Suggester (which is NOT AUv3) right now because it allows for a split screen mode with many DAW's when deciding on a chord progression and outputs MIDI for import into Cubasis, Staffpad, etc. Putting the 4-5 note chords through @_Ki's Divisi Mozaic script can split the notes up for input into choirs, brass quintets, orchestral string sections, and SWAM ensembles.

Are you referring to the Suggester app with the yellow icon and three notes? You actually can use that as an audio unit as a midi device. Absolutely great app for composition and jamming on chord progressions

McD

It's hard to find a "7" that doesn't refer to a 10 1/2 step interval wether it's attached to a major or minor chord. The exception is the diminished 7th which has intervals 1 b3 b5 bb7 (double flatter 7th).

Then any major or minor chord with a "major 7th" will state that extra detail CM7, Cm(+M7).

So, saying a 7th chord is generally assume to mean it includes this 10 step interval to that 7th.
It's good to know that 7th generally refers to a chord type and the interval of a flatted 7th or minor 7th
is described in that way.

It gets really fun when you start learning the altered jazz chords and are expected to form them quickly
but leave out the root and 5th. It boils down to hours of drills and muscle memory. @LinearLineman did those drills and has then down pat but probably more as hand shapes similar to the way a guitar player
often thinks of these chords... as shapes. The really gifted players see them as note clusters that can lead to potential voice leading... more drills and mental/muscle structures required to achieve that level.

Sliding chord shapes up and down the modes is yet another drill... it generates smooth voice leading since the 3, 4, 5 not shapes all move in parallel lines while enforcing the scale of the particular mode.

Computers by the way are really good at this stuff when programmed by a musically savvy developer. I want to play with that Scaler 2 desktop app that's discussed and demo'ed on a current thread. It lets you skip the drills but get those sounds. How do you thing the person that did the drills feels about the computerized "composer" apps. It's like the archer meeting the teenager with an AR-15. It doesn't seem like anything is fair anymore with modern tech. Remember Indiana Jones and the swordsman?

McD

@Fingolfinzz said:;;
Are you referring to the Suggester app with the yellow icon and three notes? You actually can use that as an audio unit as a midi device. Absolutely great app for composition and jamming on chord progressions.

Yes. That's the app.

Thanks. I started using it as a split window app with the non-AUv3, non-IAA Staffpad "DAW" so I didn't even look when I started using it though AUM to add the Mozaic MIDI scripting. Cool. You learn something new everyday and forget 2 older pieces of knowledge at my age.

Fingolfinzz

@McD said:

@Fingolfinzz said:;;
Are you referring to the Suggester app with the yellow icon and three notes? You actually can use that as an audio unit as a midi device. Absolutely great app for composition and jamming on chord progressions.

Yes. That's the app.

Thanks. I started using it as a split window app with the non-AUv3, non-IAA Staffpad "DAW" so I didn't even look when I started using it though AUM to add the Mozaic MIDI scripting. Cool. You learn something new everyday and forget 2 older pieces of knowledge at my age.

Yeah I remember it got the update maybe a year ago or so. I honestly totally forgot about the app cos the sync was a little weird when it was first updated and I don’t see it mentioned on the forum very often so it slipped through the cracks. I downloaded it again yesterday cos I saw it mentioned and wanted to see if it’s any better and it’s very solid now.

LinearLineman

@McD said:
It's hard to find a "7" that doesn't refer to a 10 1/2 step interval wether it's attached to a major or minor chord. The exception is the diminished 7th which has intervals 1 b3 b5 bb7 (double flatter 7th).

Then any major or minor chord with a "major 7th" will state that extra detail CM7, Cm(+M7).

So, saying a 7th chord is generally assume to mean it includes this 10 step interval to that 7th.
It's good to know that 7th generally refers to a chord type and the interval of a flatted 7th or minor 7th
is described in that way.

It gets really fun when you start learning the altered jazz chords and are expected to form them quickly
but leave out the root and 5th. It boils down to hours of drills and muscle memory. @LinearLineman did those drills and has then down pat but probably more as hand shapes similar to the way a guitar player
often thinks of these chords... as shapes. The really gifted players see them as note clusters that can lead to potential voice leading... more drills and mental/muscle structures required to achieve that level.

Sliding chord shapes up and down the modes is yet another drill... it generates smooth voice leading since the 3, 4, 5 not shapes all move in parallel lines while enforcing the scale of the particular mode.

Computers by the way are really good at this stuff when programmed by a musically savvy developer. I want to play with that Scaler 2 desktop app that's discussed and demo'ed on a current thread. It lets you skip the drills but get those sounds. How do you thing the person that did the drills feels about the computerized "composer" apps. It's like the archer meeting the teenager with an AR-15. It doesn't seem like anything is fair anymore with modern tech. Remember Indiana Jones and the swordsman?

Nothing is fair as you know. The archer AR15 analogy has a violent bent. Not so in creativity unless you’re jealous and not that talented. The idea is to take the evolution and run with it…. Before the potters wheel how did potters pot? Damn that wheel! My shit was custom made! Now potters don’t pot, they spin. They’re spinners not potters!

@Paulieworld is carrying your AR15. He does good stuff with it. He’s spinning, not potting. That’s evolution. If you don’t have to do the exercises, don’t… but that’s the end of live playing… isn’t it? Nope. It’s modular playing live… if you can manage it… and with your free hand you can do the visuals… all for an audience. That’s progress, no?

Especially since there’s always someone else who WILL do the exercises. You just have to decide who you want to see tomorrow night.

mistercharlie

If you’re playing 12 bar blues, that can be modal. You’re switching chords, and playing the same scale on top.

Bonus tip. Hit the harmonic minor scale when you’re playing over the V chord (just raise the 7th by one semitone). Instant spiciness!

CracklePot

@mistercharlie said:
If you’re playing 12 bar blues, that can be modal. You’re switching chords, and playing the same scale on top.

Bonus tip. Hit the harmonic minor scale when you’re playing over the V chord (just raise the 7th by one semitone). Instant spiciness!

Is it though?
Seems like playing in plain ol’ Major fits that description… switching chords while playing the same scale on top.

McD

@mistercharlie said:
If you’re playing 12 bar blues, that can be modal. You’re switching chords, and playing the same scale on top.

Bonus tip. Hit the harmonic minor scale when you’re playing over the V chord (just raise the 7th by one semitone). Instant spiciness!

These modes as the names imply come from the Greeks harp. Very much like the white notes but with differences Ng roots. Harmonic minor is a scale but not a node. To play the blues you need those black keys. And the blues harp is built for modes but where there is the will there is the way to bend notes to hit those out of mode notes.

celtic_elk

@CracklePot said:

@mistercharlie said:
If you’re playing 12 bar blues, that can be modal. You’re switching chords, and playing the same scale on top.

Bonus tip. Hit the harmonic minor scale when you’re playing over the V chord (just raise the 7th by one semitone). Instant spiciness!

Is it though?
Seems like playing in plain ol’ Major fits that description… switching chords while playing the same scale on top.

Traditionally a 12-bar blues is voiced with all 7th chords, only one of which appears in any given major scale (or its modes), so if you’re playing E7-A7-B7, you’re arguably switching keys. The blues culture permits a wide variety of approaches to this situation: you can certainly get away with just playing an E minor pentatonic over the whole thing, especially if your phrasing is strong, but you can also shift pentatonics to match the chords, or play Mixolydian instead of pentatonic minor, and before you know it you’re using a half-whole diminished scale as a ramp to the IV chord and there’s a shifty-looking guy named Jazz beckoning you from that dark corner….

Paulieworld

@LinearLineman
"Paulieworld is carrying your AR15." LOL! Ammo has gotten really expensive in Chicago, so it may actually be currently unloaded. In answer to your question, yes I use modes, but not consciously.

cian

One trick/thing with modes to be aware of is you want to be careful with both the dominant and the diminished chords. To much If for example you are doing a piece in D dorian - then if you have too much G7-C (which in Dorian would be IV7-> VII) it will feel like you're in C major. Similarly Bdim -> C (VIdim -> VII) will have a similar kind of feel.

Generally I find it's best to avoid dominant 7ths if possible, and replace them with other things (sus chords often work quite well). And then for 'dominant replacement' chords you use the characteristic chords for that mode.

So for Dorian, it's basically the minor scale with a sharp 6th (e.g. C dorian has an 'A' note, rather than an 'Ab' like C minor). That means the chords that really stand out are ii_min, iv_min and vi_min (technically the #vi_min) - plus any sevenths that have the 6th. So you can use those as structural chords for your progression quite effectively, in the same way you might use pre-dominant/dominant chords.

Another trick that people sometimes use is to have a drone note for the tonic. So again for D dorian you'd have your chord progressions, but you'd have a bass note remaining on D. That can be quite effective.

Then there's bimodality, where you have two instruments playing in different modes But that's pretty advanced...

celtic_elk

@cian said:
One trick/thing with modes to be aware of is you want to be careful with both the dominant and the diminished chords. To much If for example you are doing a piece in D dorian - then if you have too much G7-C (which in Dorian would be IV7-> VII) it will feel like you're in C major. Similarly Bdim -> C (VIdim -> VII) will have a similar kind of feel.

Functional harmony as it’s been commonly practiced for the last few centuries is post-modal; the chord scales on the modes don’t really work well for generating the kind of harmonic momentum that you expect and experience in a I-IV-V pop song or a ii-V7-I jazz progression. (I don’t think "modal borrowing" is a particular good term for incorporation of non-diatonic chords, either, but that’s a different rant.) I would argue that the modes are good for providing alternative melodic colors over functional harmony, rather than for generating functional harmony themselves.

So for Dorian, it's basically the minor scale with a sharp 6th (e.g. C dorian has an 'A' note, rather than an 'Ab' like C minor). That means the chords that really stand out are ii_min, iv_min and vi_min (technically the #vi_min) - plus any sevenths that have the 6th. So you can use those as structural chords for your progression quite effectively, in the same way you might use pre-dominant/dominant chords.

Voice of convention again: the 6 in the Dorian mode is the "natural" or "major" 6, compared to the "flat" or "minor" 6 of the Aeolian/natural minor. When in doubt, compare to a major scale.

cian

@celtic_elk said:

@cian said:
One trick/thing with modes to be aware of is you want to be careful with both the dominant and the diminished chords. To much If for example you are doing a piece in D dorian - then if you have too much G7-C (which in Dorian would be IV7-> VII) it will feel like you're in C major. Similarly Bdim -> C (VIdim -> VII) will have a similar kind of feel.

Functional harmony as it’s been commonly practiced for the last few centuries is post-modal; the chord scales on the modes don’t really work well for generating the kind of harmonic momentum that you expect and experience in a I-IV-V pop song or a ii-V7-I jazz progression.

Wasn't that my point? Otherwise I have no idea what you're saying here. If you want your modal music to sound modal, be careful of the V from the relative major scale. And you need to use different ways of structuring your chords. Typically you'll find that the 'structural' chords are those that have the modal flavour (e.g. the sharp 6th for a Dorian).

You don't need functional harmony - it's just we've been trained by slightly inflexible western theory to think that it's necessary. But lots of folk music and pop music don't use functional harmony. And some jazz doesn't either.

Also really don't think functional harmony is post-modal. The reason that the major (and modified minor scales) are popular in western theory is because they work so well with functional harmony.

(I don’t think "modal borrowing" is a particular good term for incorporation of non-diatonic chords, either, but that’s a different rant.)

'modal borrowing' and 'non-tonal' are both awful terms, but the lingo is what it is.

I would argue that the modes are good for providing alternative melodic colors over functional harmony, rather than for generating functional harmony themselves.

That is certainly an approach, but it's far from being the only one.

Voice of convention again: the 6 in the Dorian mode is the "natural" or "major" 6, compared to the "flat" or "minor" 6 of the Aeolian/natural minor. When in doubt, compare to a major scale.

I see # used when referencing a minor scale quite a bit. The 6th in the Dorian is sharpened, because the Dorian is a minor scale (defined by having the minor 3rd). There's a book (modalogy maybe?) that goes into quite a lot of this stuff in some depth.

hisdudeness

I see # used when referencing a minor scale quite a bit. The 6th in the Dorian is sharpened, because the Dorian is a minor scale (defined by having the minor 3rd). There's a book (modalogy maybe?) that goes into quite a lot of this stuff in some depth.

….# is used to “reference” only… for example .. to answer the question what is the difference between natural minor and Dorian ?

But if one were asked to construct D Dorian for example

It would be
1 2 b3 4 5 M6or6 b7

And a D aeolian aka Natural Minor would be
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7

If someone was to ask to construct D melodic minor ascending to play Hotel California,
You would need to “sharpen” the 6 and 7 of natural minor (easy defending here)

But convention would still be
D Melodic Minor 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7