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How to get a good guitar tone with DI and ampsims?
I've tried for years. Seems like anything DI and into an ampsim comes out sounding sterile brash. I just want a warm analogue fat tone out of a n ampsim. I've mostly been using my focusrite interface, I tried connecting a booster pedal once but it didnt help. I just want my DI and ampsim to sound more like a real amp. I think my DI tone sucks, what are you guys doing to get good tones>
Comments
Good tone is a very subjective thing, but have you tried the Choptones rigs in Overloud TH-U? They’re the closest thing to a real amp on iOS IMO.
If you want something warm, probably even verging on the dark, then the Choptones Super Reverb might do the trick.
Amp sims have fantastically improved over the last year. You should check out the numerous threads about Nembrini and Overloud TH-U. You should also look for threads about Impulse Responses, which can help amazingly. The forum search function will get you a head-spinning number of hits with any of these search terms.
On the DI front, I recently pulled out a really old ART Tube MP and fed my iPad with that. I had ditched it long ago because it imparted too much background hiss. But this time instead of using a guitar cable between the Tube MP and my audio interface, I used a microphone cable. The hiss was completely gone and the tone out of my amp sims was noticeably smoother.
That said, the previous generation of amp sims I had been using would still have been crap compared to the Nembrini sims that I favor today. There is just a huge world of difference.
You're never going to fully replace the feel of a live amp in a real room with anything playing through headphones, but you can sure as heck get a lot closer today than a year or so ago.
@wim is right, as usual. What you seek is definitely achievable. Answering a few questions would make it easier for us to help:
— What amp sims do you already own?
— What sort of tones are you after (e.g. metal, jazz, bluesy, etc.)?
— Are you sure your levels are set properly, especially the input gain on the Focusrite? (If the signal is too hot, everything will sound raspy and distorted.)
— Are you monitoring through headphones, speakers, or something else?
@kzkkazeko : if you haven't checked them out, there are quite a few posts here where people have posted links to recordings they have made with the better amp sims.Currently, there seems to some some consensus that the TH-U and Nembrini sims are the best at the moment.
I personally find amp sims have been “good enough” for 20 years+.
To get a good time out of them you
A) have to make sure you aren’t clipping the inputs of your audio interface. Aim for -12 as your highest peak.
C) Have to make sure you aren’t clipping the output of your audio interface.
D) Make sure you don’t have a ground loop. If you do, a passive DI after a buffered pedal is your friend.
E) Spend time dialing in the amp sim like you would with a real amp.
Worth mentioning, imo, is that one should be comparing/contextualizing an sim to playback of a recording of a mic’d amp.
It won’t be as satisfying in the room as an actual amp an cabinet in the room with you BUT it might sound as good or even better than what you would have captured if you mic’d and recorded your amp… unless you have access to a good studio and mics.
Here is a fine example of what’s possible from our former forum member, Flo. The new Nembrini Faceman is on sale and the excellent BYOD “pedal” app is free, for some inexplicable reason. Flo has posted many amp sim demos on YouTube. Highly recommended…
Brusfri could help with the noise.
IMO, it is great after recording for cleaning things up. On my hardware, it adds latency that bugs me when playing in real-time.
It‘s two sides of a coin: the instrument input (DI) and the virtual amp output.
The latter usually is perceived more important, as it does way more variation, but the plain input signal may vary, too.
A plain virtual amp will always be kind of harsh, as it‘s supposed to feed a speaker, either real or virtual by a cabinet impulse response (in most cases). You probably know this, mentioning it just for completeness.
Whatever... the virtual cabinet response is crucial for the tone output - a great cabinet IR will even work with the most crappy input signal.
But for real great results you may check the raw input tone, too.
I don‘t know the Focusrite, but the Audient DIs (which are considered great), yet they kind of pale versus some vintage preamps or specialized gear like the Avalon U5.
(it‘s an expensive enhancement, though... and may not be worth the amount of cash)
Are you using a DI box? It's not clear from your description. (I assume not.)
Focusrite is the last place I would look for a weak link.
The first place I look is the input signal. Plug into one of the preamps on the front of the Focusrite and make sure it is not padding and not clipping.
The next place is the amp sim. There are many good ones and a few duds. To demo two great ones with contrasting styles, I recommend trying Nembrini and Rhino.
At this point you should have great sound for recording and in your headphones.
What it sounds like in the room will depend a lot on the room and your speakers.
I'll add that IMO at least some little bit of reverb is essential. I'm not talking about for obvious ambience, but at least a little bit to give some sense of being in a room rather than wedged between two earbuds. This also smooths out some of that harshness, especially if you can roll off the highs and lows a bit on the reverb itself. I like to start with only as much as helps to make me feel like I'm sitting in front of an amp and starts to smooth out the distortion just a little bit. If I can actually hear the reverb rolling off then that's too much. If I want to get a bigger sense of space or ambience then I add that on top later.
Some IRs have room mics that can be blended in with another closer mic or used on their own. I don't generally use these but that's more out of not having experimented with them or felt the need for them than out of any preference.
The guitar signal itself is kind of raw, unpolished, simplistic. So IMHO you don't need a high end pre amp as an imput for an amp sim. I use a small Mackie mixer as a pre amp and to color the signal a bit.
https://www.thomann.de/nl/mackie_402_vlz4.htm
And I have a Palmer Eins tube head, that also can be used as a tube pre+power amp, it has a high-Z output, that goes into the mixer or audio interface. It runs on 230 volt, so the tubes actually work on the right voltage.
https://www.thomann.de/nl/palmer_eins.htm
But, this gear doensn't give me a "warm analogue fat tone". It just make the signal a bit more organic.
This is probably subjective but I don’t think the problem lies in the quality of the amp sims. I believe you’ll get a more “pro” sound using an amp sim than a regular amp with a mic on your average home studio.
The problem imo is the environment. Even if it’s a crappy amp, when you’re using an amp you’re probably playing loud, in studio or rehearsal place. You get the thump, the air vibrations, you feel it.
The fair comparison comes to listening to a recording of that amp vs the same take with an amp sim. I’ve recorded tracks in studios with nice amps and taken it home together with a DI signal recording. That’s when plenty of times I’ve liked better the DI with an amp sim. Less eq problems, more control…
For warm analog I’d try the new Nembrini Faceman.
@kzkkazeko where have you gone? We’re all trying to help.
Anyone recommend a good DI box?
For guitar, the ik multimedia z tone would be very good.
An INCREDIBLE DI, the only time I’ve ever been absolutely blown away by a passive DI, is the lightning boy audio TI box- look that up. Not expensive, deepest bass I’ve ever gotten on a recording (I was recording another bassist).
If you want an easy DIY project, the DIYRE passive DI is a very easy build.
And of course, radial makes the classic Jensen DI.
I am wondering, why use a DI box instead of a pre-amp to get the guitar signal into the audio interface.
I assume a pre amp can "color" the signal a lot more than a DI box can.
I assume DI box is not used. If it were used, I would question why in this amp sim scenario.
I use DI to impedance-match instrument level to some other level, and to convert unbalanced to balanced. Focusrite preamps don't need either of these.
Amp sims have got significantly better in recent years, but you might not be able to exactly match amps sims to a real amp.
However, the one thing that I think really gives an amp sim a great 'real' amp sound is some high quality cab IRs. Software cab sims fall a little short sometimes, even when the amp sim is great, so my approach is amp sim into IR loader - quite honestly I don't think I could tell the difference with a blind test if someone asked me to compare that combination to a real amp (unless I was in the same room).
Thanks @mrufino1
What is your reference for analogue fat tone?
Reference is very important and also gain structure
Once you have a reference , little bit of EQ sorcery should get you there
IR's I think are overrated ( not worth the time and effort,to search for the perfect one) unless you want to record an IR of your own sound/RIG
Off topic
Great article by John Mayer om modellers
https://www.musicradar.com/news/john-mayer-says-amp-modelling-is-close-but-not-quite-perfect-yet
great amp sound
all modelling sound
hybrid sound /reamping
Of course depends what you are after but having played with the free stuff available I found the most useable clean tone for me was using Mixbox CS. Everything else seems muddy and thin. But could be I’m using them incorrectly
IMO the combination of guitar pickup and amp sim plays an important role. You can get very harsh sounding pickup signals and feeding it into a glassy bright amp sim won’t give you a pleasant result at all. It greatly matters if playing single coil, humbucker, P90 or other pickup. The amp sim should always match and complement the guitar sound.
And yeah IRs can help solving problems and add dimension.
For a good DI checkout Phoenix Audio or a Rocktron Valvesonic.
Like to record direct, then output to a guitar amp and record with a mic.