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db/VU Type Meter to Overlay Fader?
Hi,
Imma lookin' for a plugin for AUM, that would provide an easier to see VU or db type meter in a channel. It would 'stay open' and show the volume (probably in dB) in, or flowing through the channel. The plugin GUI would be very small, rectangular and roughly 5x the height than width. It would sit next to or over the fader.
I have a couple "made up" screen snapshots here - this will show you kind of what I'm looking for. I searched the compatible apps, but didn't see any. Maybe it's named or tagged under something different. See comments after the picture - please.
I doOOOOOOOoo realize there's a meter at the top of the AUM screen. It's good for sure - but a bit tough to get a clearer picture - especially for those of use with glasses, and in low light environments.
FOR MY USE: My session routes stuff a SINGLE /FINAL out channel, that goes to the front of house. In that channel I have no = zero fx plugins, so ---- if I can find something like this, it would be the only plugin.
Thanks
dBLess in Denver
Comments
I don't think you'll find anything that can take over part of the AUM screen space. iOS is just not that modular. AUM allows an app to present itself in a window when it is "open", and you can adjust the size of that window.
The NuRack app includes a couple of meters that might work, traditional VU and LED, like this.
Have you considered why you need to monitor the level? Could you use a compressor or limiter to keep the level under control without needing to monitor it? There are lots of good dynamics apps for iOS, including AU3FX:Push by the author of AUM.
That would be a fun plugin to write. The problem is there isn't any way to get rid of the surrounding AUM window so no matter what you do it would cover up some screen elements you don't want it to.
miRack has some good meters, and with careful scrolling, zooming, and sizing, you could come sort of, kind of, close.
@uncledave GREAT QUESTION about what's the real need for monitoring the loudness. It stems from "trying out" different plugins, or different settings (usually presets) for plugins in a performance. Maybe have 3 different reverb plugins and each has 10 or so presets of their own. Then maybe out of curiosity I try a new preset out that I haven't used before - and now the volume either jumps a bunch or drops a bunch - but often I can't CLEARLY tell what's going on. I'm playing with drums, electric guitars, keyboards - and sometimes I'm not too loud or too strong in the monitors. SoOOoooOoo I kind of want this as like a crutch or sanity check - not only do my ears tell me something, but now my eyes confirm it, and it also gives me a fair indication of how much louder/softer the change in plugin..... or quite changing 2 plugins..... how much change in volume they've caused.
That's the need.
I do sometimes (not always) use a compressor at or towards the end of my signal chain. I could certainly do that in AUM. On my old-school pedalboards or multi-fx processors, I do that sometimes, but not always. Sometimes I run out DSP (processing power), or simply fx blocks.
I'm wondering if this sort of thing would be of value to many others, and not so much. Probably not too many people would want something like this.
There is an AUM update on the horizon with several cool things not sure if anything like this is involved but we will be able to see how much cpu is being used by each app. I can’t remember if I saw the news on AUM Twitter feed or in this forum. It lists several new additions but I can’t remember what the others are…
I requested a 'folder' concept. Mostly for large sessions where you have maybe a dozen, twenty or so channels. I suggested that you create a folder to kind of 'collapse' any channels you wanted into the folder to save screen estate. For example you might put all the percussion /drum channels in a folder (after you had them set up), or you might put all your string pad channels in a folder.
Almost all of the major PC/Mac DAW software has this feature.
You need to attract a developer to your ask... not insult the users for being on a substandard platform. Try honey and keep the salt. And wait for a bite. I wouldn't buy such an app since it's easy to just reach out and adjust the slider or use an auto volume app (i.e. limiter). But you're a visual... good luck.
There are a hundreds of apps we don't have on IOS... yet.
Agreed. I certainly hope I didn't insult the users. Although there's a search here on Audiobus for apps, there's a lot of apps out there, and I don't know all of them. The idea here is just asking a larger pool of users -- is there something that some you on the forum know that can do this kind of thing (VU or dB meter that displays somewhat over the channel)
Agreed again - just because functionality is valuable to me, doesn't mean it's value to others.
I'm curious..... where is a good place to attract the attention of developers?
It takes a while to crank out an app and get it approved. @4pockets_paul created a couple apps a month but he's taking a medical break. Running the numbers... how many users and at what cost to achieve payback. Anyway... screen real estate and window management are huge issues. Pick your goals carefully and always entertain workarounds. I'm sure your getting real value from IOS and should consider making videos to bring more real musicians that work live into the club. Very few are doing what yo do and millions could but it takes an evangilist to sell the potential. YouTube channel! Think about it. Check out some of the leaders in that space. None are violinists so you have value add for many string players.
I’ll have to agree here that the input/output metering functions in most apps have plenty of room for improvement. A BIG granular meter with a scale and Peak & RMS readout would be a good starting point.
In AUM for eaxmple the ‘fader background’ could be used for this as the small leds are hardly usable for anything else than clip-detection and the meter at the top is also pretty tiny especially if the iPad is a bit away from the user when tweaking levels.
Now I don’t know what features @j_liljedahl is planning to add for the next AUM version but I do hope improved level metereing is one of them
Cheers!
I'm very interested to hear exactly why/how the current 4 segment "led" in/out meters in AUM are hardly usable. They show you if there's signal, if it's normal or hot levels, or if it's clipping. And if clipping, it shows the exact peak value in dB numerically so you can drop the gain by the same amount. If needed, any of these simple meters can be brought up in the main big level meter at the top. In which situations do you need more granularity than this, per channel?
One thing I'm considering is adding a "meter bridge" view, with full resolution cpu hungry meters per channel and bus etc. But this is mostly just because this request comes up now and then, not because I understand in what way it would actually be useful other than looking cool
>
I get that, in general the 'text/font-size' used in AUM's 'top bar' is quite small I almost have to use a magnifying glass to see something and the contrast of the numbers against the dark background doesn't make it any easier...
...sorry I can't help that my eye sight is rapidly degrading
Maybe AUM could check if the users has increased the font-size (Display -> Text Size) and adapt?
I use this meter in Logic when I'm setting and checking levels...
Sometimes I use this plug-In to adjust the level of clips...
https://www.tbproaudio.de/products/mvmeter2
(Doesn't hurt that it looks pretty cool too and can be scaled to be really big)
In AUM the background lines of each 'mixer channel' could be used to display actual peak and rms using a level gradient?
And Instead of the LEDs just turning on/off at a specific levels a fade between the levels could also be of some assistance?(Think LEDs on regular mixers).
If I'm not totally out red led lights up at -3dbFS, yellow at -9dbFS and green at -40dbFS?
The AUM meter numbers also seem to only show 'peak' with no option to show RMS?
(White dot on the meter is peak and green bar is RMS level right?).
I would not mind spending some CPU cycles for that
Don't get me wrong I really like AUM and it's like with some other apps a 'Love & Hate Relationship' that needs a bit of spanking from time to time
Cheers!
/Samuel
UI wise, putting the level meter on the fader has issues. It would imply that the readout was where the line to the fader attaches to the signal chain. So, if you had some effects pre and others post, the meaning of the level meter would be confusing.
Personally, I don't need anything more than the LED's on the input and output, but maybe for an easier to see GUI a meter node that fit into the space of a normal node and its parameter control would be useful.
I should just mention that the Audiobus "Mixer" view combines per-channel meters and faders in an interesting abstract format. They're actually per-module, but that seems a little excessive.
I can certainly consider making the big level meter more readable and higher contrast.
Both of these would use more CPU, and I still don't understand exactly why you need this? (Except that it might look pretty). In which cases do you need to know the exact dB signal levels of multiple channels at once, could you give me an example?
That's correct. And the 4th segment (clipping indicator) turns on at 0dBFS.
Yes. Knowing the numerical peak value is usefull because it shows you how many dB you need to lower the gain to keep it below 0 dB, or how much peak headroom you have left. I'm not sure a numerical display of RMS is useful in general. But if one needs advanced metering, one probably will want to use some metering plugin with fancy inter-sample peak detection, and LUFS, etc.
No worries at all
Just trying to understand why or in which situations users has the need for such exact metering on multiple channels at once, to help me decide where to put my priorities for future development.
Agreed.
Perhaps it would be useful with a built in meter insert node that shows visual meter inside the round node and numerical peak and rms values in text besides it? Tapping the node could bring up an extra large meter.
Guess I'm a 'Control Freak' or something something in that direction?!
For me the 'bouncing meters' provide visual feedback of each channels level in relation to each other...
...call it 'damage' from spending hours upon hours behind A&H DLive consoles as one example.
And well, if something is 'pretty' it doesn't hurt right?
Cheers!
Ryo Togawa app Channel strip has an output meter, but that’s an additional fx app to open and close. It’s actually currently on sale too, 1/2 off at $2.99.
Peak detection PPM via LED style lights is not impossible but pretty close to impossible on most digital displays. Its imposible for the screen refresh to actually show the full up/down "swing". Lets remember that Even Led peak metering came from the analog world long ago from SSL consoles.
However for VU which uses electrical current is very close to how the human ear discerns "loudness" due to its relatively slow swing action. It is definetely possible and has been done by a couple coders. When I first started mixing I worked for a well known gentlemen in the music bus. At night after his ears where shot he would turn off the mains and literally be able to balance an entire mix in silence by looking at all the channel VUs on the mixing desk. By the time he was done roughing the mix hed turn on the mains again with fresh ears and do final adjustment.
The best VU style metering in the digital realm ive used is by Klanghelm and its dirt cheap and light on CPU. You can have an extra screen dedicated just for 30/40 VU meters but of course its only Win/Mac.
The closest ive used for a true peak meter in digital realm is waves Dourrough meter but even then its still a mixture off Peak and Percieved loudness on its output therefore "slowing down" the PPM portion of the visiual aspect
Cheers
That sounds good to me.
I've tweaked the main level meter to be more readable:
Looking good
I hate leaving suggestions for developers but Ill scoot this one in real quick for AUM. One thing that could be usefull and take up a just a smidge of realestate already semi free, would be something along the lines of the certain mixing desks from the past or like the BX_Meter by brainworks.
You have the R/L peak levels just as they are shown in The main Aum meter but in the center move the DB numbering to the outsides and then you have 2 lanes for RMS in the center. Or even better since its an rms calc. just one big lane in the center showing RMS values for combined R/L. Its extremely useful to see the relationship of the peak meters bouncing with the rms value in the center. This in a sense would make it visually possible to estimate CREST factor which would be amazing on a Ipad.
SOLD.....
Ahhhh...not sold. It takes up too much screen real estate. It's much more (as you stated) than just a dB or loudness meter.....it's a channel strip.
I do understand there could be confusion.... HOWEVER.....
what if you split the fader area into two parts; fader on the left and dB meter on the right (or optional dB meter on the right)?
I don't have Photoshop with me😭😭 otherwise I would mock up something better
I personally like the lack of big meters for each channel. I want AUM lean and non-distracting. Multiple big meters come at the cost of CPU. They distract me from using my ears for leveling. They encourage a largely not needed emphasis on gain staging harking back to when analogue equipment clipped at anything above 0db.
DAWs today don't clip internally at 0db. Plugins may, so it's important to watch those, but that's within a channel's signal path and needs to be monitored there. A big-ass channel fader isn't going to tell you anything about the level going into and out of a distortion plugin, for instance.
AUM gives me all the metering I want or need, without distracting me while creating. It's immediately obvious when I'm sending potentially too much, and it's not that difficult to track back to where I might want to do some gain staging to avoid build-up of problems. Unless I'm getting clipping on the master I really don't give a crap about the rest except input to individual plugins that are gain sensitive. I don't care about RMS either except at the final mix down. I certainly don't want to be thinking about it while fine-tuning a mix by ear.
I guess it's comforting to people to have that visual representation front and center. Or maybe we're all just used to it from DAWs modeled to look like their analog ancestors. To me it serves no purpose. But I'm arguing uselessly here as I've never once seen anyone change their mind on this topic. So I'll shut up now.
I will say that I hope if there were ever to be something like this in AUM that it would be in the form of a built-in windowless plugin that could be added if and where desired, not an integrated part of the UI.
That would involve taking up screen space and/or needing to make the fader narrower. Making the controller narrower isn't going to be a good idea. The fader is basically the main control point in live usage. The touch UI really needs controls to be big enough and spread out enough. This is pretty much the most important thing to take into account to make an iOS GUI usable. The way AUM does this now with the fader configuration and size is perfect.
Thanks, I fully agree. The simple 3 dot meters do tell you all that's needed IMHO.
I will consider making a separate full screen meter bridge view, but I have the feeling most users would prefer I prioritize other common requests such as Receive MIDI Clock
The white peak markers already show the peak, and the bars show RMS.