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Have you ever duplicated a synth patch or effect using something other than the original synth or ef
Something I’ve faced recently has been the need to duplicate a patch or effect created on iOS, then moved to the desktop with a different synth or combination of effects because the iOS app has no desktop equivalent.
For example, I’ve used patches from Bram Bos and Kai Aras on iOS which then need to be duplicated for desktop production and finding and an exact sound using other tools isn’t always possible due to custom features not available elsewhere.
Let me know what you do when you face this.
I’m also considering catagorizing synths into styles/types of synthesis so people can more easily figure out what they can use on either platform to use as a substitute.
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I've tried to, but I could never get it to sound identical. The way digital plugins do FM and other audio-rate modulation differs.
So, on the iPad, I reecord the AUv3 MIDI tracks to audio and use iMazing to drop the .wavs on my desktop.
Or I sample 3 or 4 keys per octave, turning it into a multisampled instrument.
Or if it's drums or short 1-shots, I record a bunch of them to audio, use iMazing...
I usually put the timbre, key, scale, tempo, etc. info in the name of the .wav, so I have an idea of what it is.
Good points. Synths are sometimes hybrids or the modulation on one is completely unique, etc.
So true, and frequently overlooked or not known...
(but imh ears it‘s way more general than just FM and audio rate modulation)
Sometimes the difference is subtle, sometimes it‘s more than obvious.
It may help to plan ahead and transfer sources in the most convenient way for the final mix.
In analog hardware, especially Eurorack, some folks seem to focus just on oscillators and filters, and forget that different mixers and VCAs can change the sound, esp. if they're saturating the incoming signals.
Moog CP3 mixer analysis: https://learningmodular.com/exploring-the-moog-cp3-type-mixer/
JHS article about the different types of guitar dirt pedals: https://thejhsshow.com/articles/what-you-need-to-know-about-overdrive-pedals
This is a very good point.
Funny, more often than not I've done the opposite: Re-create a synth patch from a desktop synth on iOS.
Since I not only like to do that with conventional synth sounds but also with physical modelling like im AAS/Ableton Suite, Drambo has become my #1 tool.
Anyway, to answer your question, if it's all about the sound and not the UI design, most better synths can replicate most sounds of others, as long as the most common oscillator and filter types are included plus enough envelopes and modulation sources/destinations are available.
With more recent powerful desktop synths, the choice has become a matter of personal taste IMHO.
It's essential to understand what to do to get a certain sound though, and I think that only comes with experience over time. And even then, some sounds like from FM operators can either be replicated by copying the exact same effective parameters (and you might need to analyze an operator separately to find the 1:1 parameter mapping) or by sampling the oscillators into wavetables with sensible increments between frames.
I often use Drambo’s wavetable oscillators to recreate Serum patches I see YouTubers post videos of. Of those I’ve attempted there’s only been a tiny handful I’ve not been able to get close to.
I also tend to chain NS2s built in fx to recreate a specific auv3 effect on the odd occassion I need to automate one of the effect’s parameters.
From my experience it can be very difficult. Many synths (especially software) are designed for specific tasks, it doesn’t mean that it won’t work outside of its intended range, but it can shine when used within. And the shiny bits are the most difficult to recreate...
Many properties of a synth that I consider ‘good’ or ‘musical’ come from optimised parameter ranges, internal interactions between various parameters etc... this is what makes creations from brambos so easy to use, yet powerful (complexity hidden behind few knobs)
These aren’t easy to recreate even if attempted with a capable synth.
Drambo (or other modular/open systems) is the opposite, it will allow you to dig as deep as you want, but you’ll have to know what to do to get musical results (vast ranges). But great tool for free experimentation.
Even a rudimentary understanding of how waveforms work to create sound helps. My knowledge on the subject improves a little every day, but I'm still a relative noob on the matter since I've never bothered to delve into it until very recently. On the desktop I've been battling with Cherry Audio's "Dreamsynth" recently, which is a hybrid synth with complexity a bit beyond my understanding at the moment. I'm pretty sure I can emulate quite a few other synths using it, but it has been slow going for me. https://cherryaudio.com/products/dreamsynth
Whether a reasonable facsimile is possible It depends on a lot of factors. One thing is that you want to use a synth whose architecture is similar.
If you are trying to recreate a cool MiniMoog patch than you’ll want to use another subtractive synth that has 2 or 3 oscillators and a good low pass filter that has a pretty steep cutoff. Not all “square” waves , etc will sound the same nor all similarly named filters, but they should get you in the ballpark.
Recreating sounds with a phase distortion synth, you will want another phase distortion synth.
If a patch relies on a special modulation setup, you’ll need a synth with similar capabilities.
Each classic synth has some unique quirk that might be hard to emulate. A lot of ARP Odyssey patches, for example, can be emulated with any synth with a classic subtractive architecture (and vice versa) BUT it has a somewhat unique setup for its FM routing that is hard to replicate.
Some cool synths don’t have close analogs and will be harder to replicate.
It's perfectly natural that getting familiar with the tools takes time @NeuM.
Dreamsynth is somewhat special in that it's a synth that relies mainly on a wide choice of preset waveforms that can be mixed or synced but no RM or FM is possible (afaik), nor does it have a choice of filter models that are sufficient for replicating many synths.
I'm sure it's a great synth for sound design though because mixing waveforms is an easy and effective method to get a wide palette of usable sounds.
If anyone's interested in an excellent free synth, I can highly recommend Surge XT:
https://surge-synthesizer.github.io
It has a great choice of elements for replicating all kinds of synth sounds and is easy enough to learn, although it may sure look somewhat overwhelming at first.
I would also recommend to stick with one synth and persevere your way through it instead of giving up and switching to the next one. Sound design can be hard work and it will require time and patience.
One of Surge XT's best features is that its UI is resizable!
Anyone now of any other free synths that're resizable? Vital and Noise Engineering's free synths are...any more?
That analog-trademark sound of 'oscillators beating against one another' is important too. You'd need a synth with free-running oscillators or the option to change their phase, rather than reset on note-on.
When I had the Vermona Perfourmer MK2 (VCOs), I tried to recreate its sound with a DSI Tetra (VCOs) and Arturia's softsynths, but i couldn't even get close, especially its pulsewidth modulated sounds, because of the Vermona's VCOs and other 'nonlinearities' (I'm not sure of the math/science behind it). The Vermona was just plain fat, and never static, even with just one note droning on. 'Osc 'slop' or mild detuning just wasn't close on the DSI and Arturias.
That’s partly the reason I’m learning Drambo. It works on the M1 Macs, and it saves me from redesigning a synth.
What I ended up doing was using desktop apps that are also on iPad.
I could also sample the audio and play it using Koala Sampler, Audiolayer, or also Drambo.
Other than that, I embrace the sounds I do in iOS, and just export the audio to do the work on desktop.
I'd love to get my hands dirty re-creating such sounds - do you have any samples from the Perfourmer?
Unfortunately they're full tracks from songs - no multisamples, or even stems. HDD failure
This Great Synthesizers review of an early Perfourmer is what made me buy one, but the filters on the release models is very different - when increasing filter resonance, the bass drops out like a Minimoog. The demos on the Great Synthesizers site are with a Perfourmer with a 'bass-compensated' filter resonance, so the bass doesn't drop out when increasing resonance, but it's noisier, so Vermona 'corrected' it in their release model. IMO the filter is the weakest part of the Perfourmer due to that change.
I mostly used the Perfourmer as two 2-oscillator monosynths (but it can be configured as four 1-osc monosynths or one four-voice polysynth), and setting both oscs to pulse, then LFOing PWM on both timbres, while the 2nd LFO is synced to the 1st LFO but is phase-shifted ~180 degrees from the first LFO - making a huge massive sound that I've never been able to recreate. Especially when panning each timbre differently.
FMing the Perfourmer's analog VCOs can be heard from the beginning of the track below (on the sides), and the Perfourmer's beefy PWM & panning trick described above can be heard at 1:10 (that centered synth at 1:26 is a Blofeld through a bunch of effects; the Perfourmer is dry - no effects). Not a very good song, more of a sound-design experiment (with Monomachine FM engine too).
@rs2000 if you could come up with something similar in Drambo, I'd be eternally grateful!
The sound at 1:10 is no prob but the one in the beginning, sorry, I'd either need the separate voices or the machine with the sound in front of me.
Here's my first attempt at it. To me it rather sounds like a mix of sawtooth & pwm.
Listening on my iPhone (mono speaker) - that sounds great. Will listen on a better system later tomorrow morning.
Could you share the Drambo patch? I still haven't dove into Drambo yet, but reverse-engineering your patch will suck me in, I bet.
Thanks a bunch!
I just sample the original sound, but in my music I enjoy happy accidents, or when things sound a bit off. Failing that I’d use the original iOS instrument in the desktop project via MIDI.
Dude, I got out of bed to tell you, @rs2000, that you're a master sound designer.
Care for another Drambo recreation? This time an effect?
At 2:08 & 4:03, there's an OP-1 synth (don't recall which) thru the OP-1's CWO effect thru Waves H-Delay.
Do you think you can clone the OP-1's CWO pitch shifting delay effect?
(btw, you can hear more of the Perfourmer's oscillators FM'ed as a sound effect at the beginning and end of the song. Also the PWM panning trick fading in from ~3:00).
Thank you!
By the way, another thread just posted here perfectly embodies the premise of this thread.
@onkey has brilliantly duplicated the sounds of a Kawai synth in AddStation (and generously offers the results of that work for free): https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/49877/kawai-k5000-patches-for-addstation#latest
Sure, I can do that later. Gotta convert it first to work in the official version though.
Probably yes, it looks fun! I would have to get my hands on it though or at least watch a detailed walkthrough with much more isolated sound snippets to get an idea what it really does.
Got a link to a good video?
The ones I've found contain wild, mixed knob tweaks - not useful for learning how it works.
@StudioES
Awesome, thanks a bunch again!
Time to wrap my head around Drambo's workflow, again! I gotta be more patient this time. (my brain doesn't gel with 'cable-less' modulars).
i think the K5000 set the record for 'hardware synth with the most parameters per patch'.