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Some questions about my home studio setup
I have some questions about my production setup. If anyone has some experience in this area, I would really appreciate some advice.
Currently, my studio monitors output through a single 2x 1/4 inch to 1x 3.5 mm cable. I'd like to have my Windows Desktop, Mac Mini, and iPhone/iPad output to the same pair of studio monitors. What's the best way to do this?
When my Windows Desktop is connected to the studio monitors using the aforementioned cable, outputting from the Windows Desktop's headphone jack, I hear static and other electronic noise. This doesn't happen with the Mac Mini, iPhone, or iPad. Should I use a DAC like the AudioQuest Dragonfly Red to eliminate the noise?
I'd like to have the same mouse and keyboard connected to both the Windows Desktop and the Mac Mini. (Switching between them, not controlling both at the exact same time. But if it's possible to display both systems on the same ultrawide monitor, and move the mouse between the two screens as you would do with a multiple monitor setup, then it would be nice to have that option.)
I'd also like to have a USB hub sitting on the desk. Ideally, it's connected to both Windows Desktop and Mac Mini. If it could work with iOS and iPad, that would be even better. Is "GEKRY 7 port USB 3.0 Hub" a good option? Should I plug that, along with the mouse and keyboard, into a USB switch? Or is there a hub + switch solution?
I'd like to route audio and MIDI between Windows/Mac and iPad. Is the iConnectivity Audio4c the best way to do this? Is there a way to connect my Window Desktop, Mac Mini, AND an iPad Pro simultaneously, or should I just swap out the USB-C connections when I want to use a different pair of devices?
Thanks in advance!
Comments
Keyboard mouse control: look at share mouse or synergy. Will roll your mouse and keyboard between desktops like single computer w/ multi monitor. You need a display on both the pc and the mac. Single monitor with a single desktop viewable at a time, you'd look at KVM switches.
Usb hubs are master/slave...so hub only gonna be on 1 computer at a time. If you have a drive connected to that hub, you can share it across the network.
Audio routing is a whole convo unto itself.....
The noise you are hearing is a ground loop.
What you probably want in that situation is a mixer to feed all those inputs to your monitors. Either that or use a USB interface that you swap between devices, it really depends on if you need to hear all those devices simultaneously or not.
@AlmostAnonymous and @BroCoast:
Thanks for the advice. Sounds like the most efficient strategy in terms of cost and desktop space, would be to connect my PreSonus AudioBox, keyboard, mouse, and USB MIDI controllers to a USB hub, then connect that USB hub to a USB switch...then swap out the AudioBox for an iConnectivity Audio4c when I can afford that.
And in terms of combining the audio or display outputs, that's probably not going to be worth the trouble.
I forgot that I can just output through the AudioBox, to get around the ground loop noise problem. And the Audio4c should allow me to connect my iPhone to one port, and the USB hub --> USB switch --> Mac+PC to the other port.
Sounds like I'm good to go!
If you need a simple solution for just switching between pc/mac headphone jacks tot he monitors, any a/b switch will do, or even a 50$ Line mixer like:
https://www.amazon.com/Rolls-MX51S-Four-Channel-Stereo-Mixer/dp/B0002BG2S6/ref=pd_sbs_sccl_3_1/144-2232584-3869604?pd_rd_w=ZXSnX&pf_rd_p=44b0dc04-f99a-4419-a406-9567d0fa03fe&pf_rd_r=VB0B9D90VBCR1Z2H6G7A&pd_rd_r=0d544042-1473-46ab-ad9e-b68ae1a17137&pd_rd_wg=05DKh&pd_rd_i=B0002BG2S6&psc=1
If your monitors can handle balanced input, use balanced cables. They eliminate signals that could interfere for the most part. If you have grounded wall sockets, use grounded power cables. If you don't use an audio interface, use at least a mixer with balanced output, and keep the cables from your devices to the mixer as short as possible. Grounding is the key to eliminate unwanted signals, and keep the audio cables away from interfering devices like monitors, transformers, power cables etc.
@AlmostAnonymous I'm open to the idea, but then how would I deal with the ground loop noise? I just replaced my old surge protector with "emi/rfi noise filtering" to see if that would help. I've seen "ferrite beads" recommended in various places.
If I connect my devices to an audio interface, then I can connect them through USB. But the downside is, every time I want to stream music from my iPhone, I would have to use a chain of adapters, or disconnect the two 1/4" cables going from the AudioBox to the studio monitors, and plug in the 2x 1/4" to 1x 3.5 mm cable.
Maybe I could plug the AudioBox mixer and the 2x 1/4" to 1x 3.5 mm cable into a mixer with 4x 1/4" inputs, but at that point, I'm using a lot of desktop space, just to make it more convenient to listen to Spotify without booting up my computer.
@Identor Thanks, looks like the 2x 1/4" to 1x 3.5 mm cable I've been using has unbalanced outputs, and the monitors can use balanced inputs, even though I think the cable I've been using is the one it shipped with. It's Massdrop version of the JBL 305. https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-x-jbl-lsr30x-powered-speakers/
My PC is using a three prong power cable, connected to a new surge protector, connected to a three prong power cable and outlet. So it looks like the weak link is the unbalanced 1/4" outputs.
Still not seeing an easy way to connect my iPhone to the studio monitors, without connecting my mixer to a mixer, which would probably color the signal, or connecting my iPhone to the CCK adapter, and connecting the mixer to that. Maybe I'll just have to use Spotify on the desktop.
Edit: Well I guess I could output from the headphone jacks into a line mixer, and output from the iPhone into a line mixer, instead of using the outputs on the audio interface, and the only possible caveat would be a less powerful DAC...but then I would need three 3.5mm to RCA cables, the line mixer, and an RCA to 2x 1/4" balanced cable, so that's probably not worth the $100+ and extra mess of cables, just to listen to Spotify without connecting the CCK and mixer.
I was unaware you already had a mixer. Which mixer do you have?
Have you isolated gear to figure out where the hum is coming from?
@AlmostAnonymous I have a Presonus AudioBox, the standard entry level two input two output USB mixer. I don't usually keep it connected unless I'm using the inputs, but I suppose that will change.
I don't know how to isolate gear, but I'm guessing it just has something to do with the motherboard in my desktop, or the PC case...and maybe the unbalanced cables I've been using. But I seem to remember using the AudioBox outputs once before, and even though I still used unbalanced cables with it, the noise was gone.
When I move my mouse, it adds a very audible tone. It's a wired laser mouse, a Razer DeathAdder from around 2013.
Here's a recording of the noise, including the sound the mouse makes.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hfkydxnmwecm63m/Recorded Audio(3).wav?dl=0
I had everything plugged in to a very cheap surge protector too, and the red light on it was flickering, which it didn't do when I bought it...so that probably didn't help.
That flickering is normal with such (gas based) lights over time, it‘s annoying to look at, but no need to worry.
ps: the ground loop thing is a tricky affair (very individual), depending on the basic electricity installation and the devices (their connections) used.
A PC can be a transmitter of weird signals. Inside the case, you got all sorts of high-frequent sources (processor, Power Supply etc.) Even a malfunction condensator could be the cause. To cancel all out, is to go digital instead of analog. That means a dedicated audio interface.
I use an iConnect Audio4+ interface where i hook up my iPad and iMac, and from there, Balanced cables to the Monitors.
@Skyblazer Sounds from moving the mouse and an using external video monitor seem to go hand in hand
First of all, I'd try to power everything from a single, long power discribution bar and keep the mains cables strapped together.
The more cable mess you have, the more chances are that you've build a radio receiver picking up whatever is available 😊
Using symmetric audio links can help a lot, as well as using better shielded cables.
That‘s a common misunderstanding, no high frequency signals affect audio.
What you hear is side effects of loading the power lines and possibly interrupt handling of the machine (which usually includes an increase of power activity).
Btw USB is a particular nasty device type because some of it‘s control timing happens in the audible spectrum.
I moved my USB mouse and keyboard to the old PS2 connectors (absent on modern motherboards, though) to silence mouse movement.
Never to old to learn
Okay, I ordered some balanced cables! Some very cheap ones, for now...but I may get the Mogami or Canare at some point. Possibly soon, if the lack of shielding is a problem.
@Telefunky How important is it to replace your surge protectors every three years? (For the noise, and in general.) I read somewhere that an old surge protector may not regulate the flow of electricity properly, or something like that. Mine were a little over three years old, and purchased on clearance from Aldi without looking at reviews, so I ordered two of these.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B014JWEELK/
I'm guessing the "pro audio" solution would be an Uninterruptible Power Supply.
Also, if I got a USB to PS2 adapter for the mouse...I don't know if it will necessary, but could that potentially help?
@rs2000 I currently have the studio monitors being powered from one power strip/surge protector, which I also use for charging the iPad. And the Windows desktop, Mac Mini, monitor, modem+router box, and Philips Hue are all plugged in to the other one. I had them all plugged in to one power strip before, but it would trip the power strip's shutoff mechanism, possibly because I was using a cheap power strip that wasn't meant to handle that much electricity. I don't know how many joules it was rated for, or the clamping voltage.
My cables are not tied together in any way, and they would have to separate pretty early on anyway. Maybe they could join and travel for a foot or two.
What would you recommend? Should I try plugging the monitors into the same surge protector? Should I bind the cables, even if they're not traveling together for more than a foot or two? Are these things that everybody should do, or are they moreso protocol for people who are taking every possible measure to get a pristine signal? (Such as, for example, manually preparing their balanced TRS output cables to be exactly 3.72 and 4.56 feet instead of buying two five foot cables.)
@Skyblazer Maybe you can split your setup into two different sections like for example, one consisting of computer, mouse, keyboard, video monitor, audio interface and studio monitors and the other one consisting of your instruments and a mixing desk then maybe you can have one single symmetrical, non-grounded link between the mixer and the audio interface.
That should solve most issues.
USB ground loop fault finding advice here: https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-can-digital-audio-cables-cause-ground-loops
IF you need it... Last time I checked USB opto isolators (as mentioned in above article) started at just under £20 on amazon uk.
Understanding ground loops:
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-what-ground-earth-loop
Sound on Sound magazine is a great resource, worth spending the time searching out further articles on there.
Eg. They have a step by step guide explaining how to lay out cables to mitigate inducing noise into them (can't find it from a quick search).
I learnt this stuff as a broadcast engineer, but it's so wordy to explain and I won't say any better than SOS already have.
Hmm. So like, a hardware mixer with faders? And analog instruments connected to the mixer? And then a single stereo output from the mixer to the audio interface? I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly. I live in a studio apartment for now, so a second desk with a mixer would have to wait, but I do have keyboard stands, to put gear on when the desk space isn't enough. My workflow is very much USB MIDI and virtual instruments-based.
Yes, any hardware mixer that has symmetrical stereo outputs so you can have a symmetrical link to the symmetrical line inputs of your audio interface and USB and other potential buggers won't interfere.
Yes, connect the analog instruments to the mixer.
The point is to have two separate mains supplies, one for the computer/audio interface/studio monitors and one for the analog instruments/iPad/Mixer. The symmetrical connection would be the only link between the two without any other ground connection.
@rollin Thanks, good to keep in mind. "USB Opto isolators". I'll read the article on ground loops. I've tried to understand it before, but I just barely understand it.
@rs2000 Sounds like I could get halfway there by just plugging any power adapters into the second outlet/power strip. Maybe you're just describing "The Ultimate Anti Ground Loop Setup" to illustrate the mechanism of a ground loop, but otherwise...it doesn't seem to incorporate the iConnectivity Audio4c, and I can't imagine it's "industry standard" to buy a mixer with several inputs, and output all of it into what becomes a single digital fader on a DAW.
I've seen pictures of setups with a ferrite bead on every cable, and today I read about how Mogami's braided shielding filters out 95% with more durability when bent, compared to Canare's 99% but with permanent gaps being created whenever you bend the cable. And I would think that even those people are not connecting their 48 channel mixing boards to a single stereo output.
So I'm definitely interested to know "What is the most extreme length that I could go to?" and I'm guessing people who own houses might even do some kind of renovations to eliminate ground noise. I'm not the type of person to say "Just tell me the bare minimum, what should I try next?" or "It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be good enough" but for now, I probably will just aim for "good enough" in terms of implementing the advice I receive. If I can spend $100k on a home studio some day, then I'll aim for perfection.
@Skyblazer I'm just sketching a rather simple setup - of course you could go 100% symmetrical on every input if money is no issue and you can have an audio interface with enough inputs for all your gear plus DI boxes for all gear with (more common) asymmetrical outputs.
I wouldn't make a scientific lesson of it. Finding the cause for disturbing noises can be as simple as unplugging gear step by step. I'd start with the computer monitor's mains plug, then disconnect instrument cables one by one (after turning the volume down before each disconnect) and hear what happens. After the video monitor is "fixed", you could even keep the volume at zero and use a spectrum analyzer on your desktop machine to visualize and quantify the hum and buzz.
@rs2000 Okay, I'll try that. How would I "fix" a video monitor if it's contributing to the noise?
Change the wiring. Try different power outlets and cable routings. Power cables interfere with each other the least if they cross at an 90 degrees angle and the most if they run in parallel.
@rs2000 Ah, okay. That sounds logical. So when you said "keep the mains cables strapped together" wouldn't that mean "parallel" or...?
Thanks again for all of your help! This thread has been very educational.
Yep, like one bundle for the desktop computer and connected peripherals and probably a separate one for audio and instruments (Although this might introduce other issues, depending on the quality of power supplies... You really have to try and be a little playful with options